When Worlds Collide! RadTraddyLand Meets St. Blogs - Priest defends strange Popcak comments

http://www.thrownback.blogspot.com/2003_08_17_thrownback_archive.html#106144691180028909 ^ | August 20, 2003 | Fr. Rob Johansen

[Akron Al]

To set the stage. Freepers were discussing some very strange, very weird comments by Greg Popcak:

"I am aware of some families where the brother may chart his sister's temperatures for her, or even some cases where the mother shares her own NFP chart (minus the coitus record, of course) with the intent of acquainting the young men and women of the house with NFP. I also know some families who object to this idea on privacy or modesty grounds."

And:

"You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family, but as long as the person whose chart it is (the mother or sister) is not terribly opposed to the idea (you really have to respect her opinion on this), I feel favorably toward the idea because it decreases the chances that your young teens will eroticize their sexuality."

Among others.

See:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/966863/posts

A Popcak friend, Mark Shea, was unwilling to defend these strange comments, but decided to turn his guns on traditionalists at his blogspot:

http://www.markshea.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_markshea_archive.html#106147776560841496

Shea also seems strange, as suggested by the title of his flimsy Popcak defense:

Attack of the Spastic Sphincter People

Now a priest has jumped into the debate with an equally strange and weird summary of yesterday's discussion.

From his blogspot:

When Worlds Collide!

or,

RadTraddyLand Meets St. Blogs!

If you've been following Mark Shea's blog of late, you'll recognize this latest fracas:

The scene: a typically quiet evening in St. Blog's. Mark Shea has been poking gentle fun at Leftists and self-appointed Hollywood arbiters of moral opinion. He turns his attention to the latest depredations of the RadTrad Alliance, and they unleash their fury!

Mark Shea: Will you look at these wacky RadTrads! Nuptial language as an analogy to God's relationship with us? "Eww! Gross!" Never mind that it's scriptural... "And how dare that Greg Popcak advocate that horrible Theology of the Body! We RadTrads all know that Theology of the Body is just an effort to open the floodgates of lust!"

Curious Girl: So if I wonder about some things Greg writes does that mean I hate the Pope?

Mark Shea: No, but those RadTrad Freepers do hate the Pope and are using this distortion of Greg's writing as their latest excuse to beat up on him. And they don't even know what they're talking about.

Curious Girl: Well, that Greg Popcak has said some strange things. Maybe those Freepers are just raising good...

RadTraddy-Daddy [jumping up and down, shouting]: All those NFP people are WEIRDOS! Everyone knows that! Greg Popcak is a PERVERT who practically advocates incest! How could a sicko like that get on EWTN?

RadTraddy-Laddy: And Popcak is friends with Scott Hahn! And Scott Hahn has written bizarre stuff comparing the Trinity with the family. Can you believe that! I don't recall reading that in the Decrees of the Council of Trent (Family Edition [TM]).

RadTraddy-Daddy: Sounds like Heresy to me! You know [whispers], Scott Hahn is still secretly a Protestant... Do you see the connection?

RadTraddy-Laddy: Yeah! Pretty sinister stuff...

Mark Shea: That's crazy! I know Greg Popcak, and his family...

Happy-Zappy: Oh, right, you knnoowww Greg. Is that somehow supposed to make up for his weirdness and perversity? Let's wait and see how his great-grandchildren turn out before we credit him with being a good husband and father.

NotTraddyEnough: I'm not really comfortable telling teens about all that NFP stuff, charting and temperatures and whatnot...

RadTraddy-Daddy: Well, of course not. If they start thinking about their sister's menstrual cycle or cervical mucus they'll want to have sex! Besides, we know that it's best to tell kids about sex after they've graduated from High School.

Fr. Rob: Mark, just ignore these Freeper RadTrad kooks. There are only 9 people involved in this "discussion". I used to pay attention, but then I realized I was reading the ravings of the same small group of nutjobs.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Ha! Got you, Fr. Rob! There are 10 people in this Freeper thread. [sticking his tongue out] So there! Besides, you're just a Novus Ordo priest (and therefore a dupe of Karol Wojtyla) so we don't have to listen to you!

Mark Shea: Sure, Happy. Why bother to find out what Greg actually said before condemning him?

Happy-Zappy: Mark, do you feed and clothe your children or do you send them out to panhandle and wander the streets, and find what food they can in dumpsters? Will you have your children chart each other?

Ichabod Bayer: Once we have a Catholic Monarch, we won't have to worry about this NFP nonsense anymore! Okay, just kidding. But seriously, did Greg actually advocate brothers and sisters helping each other chart? That sounds kinda icky.

TraddyBard: Dead skunk in the middle of the road

Dead skunk in the middle of the road.

You got yer dead skunk in the middle of the road,

Stinkin' to high Heaven!

BigGunnTraddy: Hey, don't you make fun of Catholic Monarchy! Look at the wonders it's done for Monaco and Lichtenstein. Just you wait till we stage our coup and establish the Duke of Orleans here as King!

GwynnDiesel: Look, these RadTrads just can't deal with any of the mystic imagery in Church Tradition. I mean, in the Middle Ages the Virgin Mary was sometimes depicted barebreasted, nursing the Lord.

RadTraddy-Daddy: Don't you eroticize the Blessed Mother! She didn't have breasts. The Lord was nursed by a bird which gave him to drink milk from a Blessed Coconut. I read about it in the visions of Grunhilde of Thuringia. I have a deep devotion to the Holy Coconut of Nazareth.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Speaking of breasts, you know, when Karol Wojtyla (the erstwhile "Pope" John Paul II) visited Papua, New Guinea, he actually received a native woman there in native garb, bare-breasted! That proves that the Theology of the Body is evil!

RadTraddy-Daddy: And she wasn't wearing a mantilla, either... Modernist!

RadTraddy-Laddy: Heretic! [whispers] Do you see the connection?

RadTraddy-Daddy: Wow! It's worse than I thought.

NonTraddyMommy: In my experience as a parent, I've found it's really important to be open with your kids about sex, so that they learn the true Catholic understanding of it before they hear the world's corrupted version...

RadTraddy-Daddy: Some subjects are better not discussed. The next thing you know, you'll be talking like that pervert Popcak who says we should teach kids that sex is something good and pleasurable and holy.

RadTraddy-Laddy: God Save Us! We all know that all that nonsense about the "unitive" dimension of sex is just giving license to lasciviousness. It's really only holy to want sex when you intend to conceive a child. And even then you should close your eyes and try not to enjoy it too much.

Maddy-Traddy: I always insist that the room be pitch-black and that we be under the covers, so as to preserve modesty.

RadTraddys: A virtuous Catholic woman!

Fr. Rob: Happy, why couldn't you just ask Greg to clarify himself before passing judgment?

Happy-Zappy: Once someone has written something, his statement is what it is. A person always writes exactly what he intends to convey and I am always able to discern fully what he meant. Therefore further conversation is pointless. If you don't want me to pass judgment on your thoughts, then keep them to yourself.

Mark Shea: Will you people please READ what Greg wrote? Look, Greg didn't advocate that brothers chart their sister's cycles, he simply described that some NFP families taught their kids how to do it, and that some families objected to that on the basis of modesty.

Happy-Zappy: Well, then it might not be so bad. But I'm still suspicious. That Popcak is a slippery character.

Maddy-Traddy: All those NFP people are slippery. I'll bet the mucus has something to do with it.

RomanticTrad: Doesn't all that charting and mucus-checking seem unnatural? I mean, how is that stuff a prelude to sex? I prefer romance.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Romance is OK, as long as proper decorum is observed. I've even been known, when in an amorous mood, to dance the minuet or gavotte with my wife.

Happy-Zappy: I've been re-reading Popcak, and he doesn't unequivocally condemn charting between siblings. He must be tacitly endorsing it, then! It is an unfailing rule of logic that whatever you do not completely condemn is at least partially approved. So Popcak really is advocating a sexual experimenting on kids!

RadTraddys: You finally have seen the light! We've been saying all along that Popcak is a sicko, and so is his friend Shea.

RadTraddy-Daddy: They're doing it under the banner of JP II's Theology of the Body! And JPII wouldn't do anything about the pedophiles. Do you see the connection?

Rad Traddy-Laddy: Wow! It's worse than I thought. You know who we need here now? Joe D'Hippolito! He'd see how it all fits together!

Cauldron Pyre: And what's all this sunshine-and-lollipops Popcak and Shea are spreading about joy and happiness and love? Doesn't he know that our scowls, frowns, and sour-faced grim looks are just as pleasing to God as smiles and light-heartedness?

ShellyJelly: Could someone explain to me why it would actually be morally wrong for a brother to help his sister with charting?

RadTraddys: Feuh! How dare you try to force us to make an argument! We have expressed our repulsion at such behavior, because it is ICKY. We have condemned such goings-on as WEIRD. There is no provision for anything like it in the Catechism of Trent or in the writings of Marian Horvat, Ph.D (Peace Be On Her!). Our disapprobation is sufficient moral censure. To the Outer Darkness with Popcak, Shea, Johansen, and all the other Neo-Catholic stooges of the false Vatican II regime! Anathema sint! Damnatae memoriae eorum sint!

posted by Fr. Rob 1:21 AM

16 Comments

[hellinahandcart]

But if you were to ask me at, say, 15, to chart my sister, I'd have likely either run screaming in terror, or beaten the daylights out of you.

Now imagine how your sister would have felt. "Oh joy, it's time to tell my horny teenaged brother what my temperature is down there." Gag. Ick!

[sitetest]

Dear GTM,

I think that your argument falls into the fallacy of the complex question. You are tying two things, though related, which are different. The two things that you are tying are: 1) General instruction about NFP and communicating openly to others about NFP; 2) The practice of permitting one's sons to chart their mother or sisters.

I don't think most folks here are condemning the first, which is what your responses appear to try to counter. But I think there is some consensus here that the second is appalling.

I don't have a problem with age-appropriate instruction about NFP. I'll start it myself with my own guys, when the time is right. I don't have a problem with sharing about one's experiences with adult children, especially if they were engaged, and had practical questions. I think that these are good things.

As well, my wife and I have engaged our friends and family about the subject of NFP on more than one occasion. We encourage others to give consideration to the use of NFP, we discuss with them the contraceptive mentality, etc.

But the specific practice of permitting one's sons to chart their mother or sister strikes me as so bizarre and disgusting that it makes me question the judgement of anyone who would not express at least some significant negative reservations about it. Even a lukewarm endorsement of this particular practice strikes me as wholly unacceptable.

At least in Mr. Popcak's defense, his response on the Mark Shea blog responds to precisely this point, rather than making things murky by seeming to accuse those who stand against the practice as generally being opposed to teaching teenagers and young adults about NFP. At least Mr. Popcak gets the objection, and doesn't distort it.

And part of his self-defense is that his lukewarm endorsement of the practice (and it is only lukewarm) is an exceedingly small part of his volume of work. This is also true, and a fair thing to say in his self-defense.

But, for me at least, though Mr. Popcak's endorsement of the practice is not ringing, and is rather tentative, nonetheless, he endorses the practice, and that is beyond my small, little, intolerant (evil neoCatholic Novus Ordoite) mind. To me, it is so far from a prudent, sane, legitimate view, that it makes me question his judgement otherwise.


sitetest

[old and tired]

Sitetest has perfectly summed up my thoughts on this subject, but he has put it so much more eloquently than I ever could.

I saw on Mark Shea's Blog that Mr. Popcak is accepting emails and I think I will ask him why he thinks regulation of pregnancies is such a life skill that it is ok to be taught between brothers and sisters. Personally, we tried to encourage vocations in our teenagers, and also pound in the notion that any sex act could result in a child. I am disturbed that he knows "several families" who do this brother/sister charting thing.

[Tax-chick]

I liked your tagline!

I think this whole incident is simply the work of the Devil. First, he tempts a man who generally offers strong support to Catholic families in living holy lives, to a bizarre lapse of judgment. (For the record, I agree with those who said ICK and those who said EEW!)

Then he leads many others who are likely very holy people most of the time, to jump in a frenzy shouting, "See! This proves that anyone who's ever disagreed with me about anything is Totally Dead Wrong. Nanny-nanny-boo-boo!"

St. Paul tells us that any factionalism, infighting, or self-seeking among Christians is not worthy of Our Lord. We should all keep in mind who benefits (hint - it's not Christ!) when Christians engage in these attacks on one another.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

If our dear Sinky sees something as beyond the pale ... ITS BEYOND THE PALE!!!

BTW, here's Fr. Rob's homepage. Perhaps Sinky can comment on him devoting a section of it to cigars. Fr. Rob certainly doesn't look like he is hurting for food.

[As you well know...]

very well said

[Domestic Church]

"This was posted by a priest? What is the priesthood coming to?"

Same thoughts (followed by prayer for him.)

The internet holds great potential for his anointed hands to lead and heal and I hope he finds this out soon.

[sitetest]

Dear Hermann,

I'm not hurting for food, either. And it is the source of more than one cross which I attempt to carry daily.


sitetest

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I agree. It is disturbing.

[NYer]

It seem's Patrick Madrid has been cruising through the Religion Forum and posted a link to this thread over on his blog. Here's an opportunity to see what others think of you ... or is it us? ... whatever.

CATHOLICS KICK IT UP A NOTCH

So far, no one is commenting. They're probably still skimming through your posts.

[Pyro7480]

Jim Robinson "banishes" religious threads to this forum, and the result is that the Religion Forum becomes a major resource for the debate within the Catholic church? Who would have thought... ;-)

[ThomasMore]

Neither was St. Thomas Aquinas. I think we should get off the fat jokes. Holy clergy come in all sizes. :^)

[old and tired]

I thought I would post Popcak's defense from Shea's blog.
(note: the whole letter is longer. I'm just posting the relevant part. Sitetest has already provided an accurate summary.)

A Note from Greg Popcak Regarding Questions About His Work

Dear Friends,

I wanted to take a brief moment to respond to some of the concerns that have been expressed about my work. The following is by no means intended to be a complete response, and in fact, the best response I can make has already been written in the seven books I have penned. If you want to know what I think, go read them. Rather, this is intended to assist those with legitimate questions and who are seeking the truth, as opposed to those who would rather wallow in gossip, and lies. If you are the former, I invite your further questions. If you are the latter, let's not waste our time.

1. The Brother/Sister charting question.

The paragraph in question has been reprinted on this blog, so I will not repost it here.

First, I genuinely could not care less if you use this technique in your family or not. The ONLY reason I included it in the book is that I was aware that some families, with mature children, are already doing this. I felt it would be a service to those families to provide guidelines regarding modesty and propriety so that such a technique could be done in the most respectful way possible.

I do feel somewhat favorably toward it because--done properly and respectfully--it can demystify the sexual cycle, and the Holy Father tells us, in Love and Responsibility (c.f., the section on Sexology), that giving such information about both the goodness of the body and how the body functions is a good and useful thing. However, I also understand that some children are not mature enough to handle such an execise, and some families would not think it appropriate. This is why I leave it to parental discretion. I stand by what I wrote.

Personally, I cannot say whether I would ever use such a technique in my own family or not. It would require prayer and consultation with my wife, and would have to take into account the psychological maturity of my children.

If you choose to use this idea, fine--just please be mindful of modesty and propriety. If, alternatively, the idea offends you, then ignore it altogether. It is one paragraph in a two-hundred-plus page book and the rest of the work hardly stands or falls on the one idea, which did not even originate with me, but rather, was the idea of many other families. And because I respect the wisdom of families, who are the first teachers, and not just professionals, who are--at best--helpers, I included the idea, with appropriate cautions.

[Pyro7480]

They had to cut out part of Thomas' desk so that he could write properly!

[ventana]

The fact that the guy reiterates the brother sister thing is a leading indicator of weirdness. Brother and sister should have nothing to do with each other in this arena and instead of reiterating it he ought to be spending time urging these families to seek help. V's wife.

[old and tired]

I agree, but what actually impressed me most about his letter is his claim that "many families" are doing this whole brother/sister charting thing. It sort of makes you wonder about the circles he travels in.

[ventana]

Talk about the near occasion of sin, Father Hardon would be scandalized by this. V's wife.

[ArrogantBustard]

Personally, I cannot say whether I would ever use such a technique in my own family or not. It would require prayer and consultation with my wife, and would have to take into account the psychological maturity of my children.

Bleh. Yuck. It shouldn't take a great deal of prayer and consultation to realize that encouraging a 'spousal' relationship between mothers and sons or brothers and sisters is a bad idea regardless of the "psychological maturity" of the persons involved. I can't help noticing the subtle slam on his critics, here. The paragraph implies that if one disagrees with his idea, or considers it repulsive, inappropriate, or sick, one is simply "psychologically immature". And of course, we can disregard the reactionary opinions of the mentally underdeveloped.

[sockmonkey]

I agree, but what actually impressed me most about his letter is his claim that "many families" are doing this whole brother/sister charting thing. It sort of makes you wonder about the circles he travels in.

I'm not sure if Morticia and Gomez are Catholic, but I was thinking that even the Addams family would be creeped out by this brother/sister charting idea.

[old and tired]

I'm starting to feel sorry for old Popcak. I'm beginning to think that he really doesn't get out much. And as an expert in the field of NFP he is so immersed in it he starts to become removed from its reality. He's somehow forgotten that there is a time and a place for NFP and teenage siblings ain't it where it's supposed to be.

The best analogy I can come up with is when your kids are small you get so used to changing diapers, eventually you can do it right in the middle of dinner without skipping a mouthful. Should you take the child out of the room, change him, wash your hands thorougly, and then proceed with eating? Of course. But if we're all honest with ourselves, is that what we did every time?

That said, I'm still going to pay extra close attention everytime I see him on EWTN.