When Worlds Collide! RadTraddyLand Meets St. Blogs - Priest defends strange Popcak comments

http://www.thrownback.blogspot.com/2003_08_17_thrownback_archive.html#106144691180028909 ^ | August 20, 2003 | Fr. Rob Johansen

[Akron Al]

To set the stage. Freepers were discussing some very strange, very weird comments by Greg Popcak:

"I am aware of some families where the brother may chart his sister's temperatures for her, or even some cases where the mother shares her own NFP chart (minus the coitus record, of course) with the intent of acquainting the young men and women of the house with NFP. I also know some families who object to this idea on privacy or modesty grounds."

And:

"You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family, but as long as the person whose chart it is (the mother or sister) is not terribly opposed to the idea (you really have to respect her opinion on this), I feel favorably toward the idea because it decreases the chances that your young teens will eroticize their sexuality."

Among others.

See:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/966863/posts

A Popcak friend, Mark Shea, was unwilling to defend these strange comments, but decided to turn his guns on traditionalists at his blogspot:

http://www.markshea.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_markshea_archive.html#106147776560841496

Shea also seems strange, as suggested by the title of his flimsy Popcak defense:

Attack of the Spastic Sphincter People

Now a priest has jumped into the debate with an equally strange and weird summary of yesterday's discussion.

From his blogspot:

When Worlds Collide!

or,

RadTraddyLand Meets St. Blogs!

If you've been following Mark Shea's blog of late, you'll recognize this latest fracas:

The scene: a typically quiet evening in St. Blog's. Mark Shea has been poking gentle fun at Leftists and self-appointed Hollywood arbiters of moral opinion. He turns his attention to the latest depredations of the RadTrad Alliance, and they unleash their fury!

Mark Shea: Will you look at these wacky RadTrads! Nuptial language as an analogy to God's relationship with us? "Eww! Gross!" Never mind that it's scriptural... "And how dare that Greg Popcak advocate that horrible Theology of the Body! We RadTrads all know that Theology of the Body is just an effort to open the floodgates of lust!"

Curious Girl: So if I wonder about some things Greg writes does that mean I hate the Pope?

Mark Shea: No, but those RadTrad Freepers do hate the Pope and are using this distortion of Greg's writing as their latest excuse to beat up on him. And they don't even know what they're talking about.

Curious Girl: Well, that Greg Popcak has said some strange things. Maybe those Freepers are just raising good...

RadTraddy-Daddy [jumping up and down, shouting]: All those NFP people are WEIRDOS! Everyone knows that! Greg Popcak is a PERVERT who practically advocates incest! How could a sicko like that get on EWTN?

RadTraddy-Laddy: And Popcak is friends with Scott Hahn! And Scott Hahn has written bizarre stuff comparing the Trinity with the family. Can you believe that! I don't recall reading that in the Decrees of the Council of Trent (Family Edition [TM]).

RadTraddy-Daddy: Sounds like Heresy to me! You know [whispers], Scott Hahn is still secretly a Protestant... Do you see the connection?

RadTraddy-Laddy: Yeah! Pretty sinister stuff...

Mark Shea: That's crazy! I know Greg Popcak, and his family...

Happy-Zappy: Oh, right, you knnoowww Greg. Is that somehow supposed to make up for his weirdness and perversity? Let's wait and see how his great-grandchildren turn out before we credit him with being a good husband and father.

NotTraddyEnough: I'm not really comfortable telling teens about all that NFP stuff, charting and temperatures and whatnot...

RadTraddy-Daddy: Well, of course not. If they start thinking about their sister's menstrual cycle or cervical mucus they'll want to have sex! Besides, we know that it's best to tell kids about sex after they've graduated from High School.

Fr. Rob: Mark, just ignore these Freeper RadTrad kooks. There are only 9 people involved in this "discussion". I used to pay attention, but then I realized I was reading the ravings of the same small group of nutjobs.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Ha! Got you, Fr. Rob! There are 10 people in this Freeper thread. [sticking his tongue out] So there! Besides, you're just a Novus Ordo priest (and therefore a dupe of Karol Wojtyla) so we don't have to listen to you!

Mark Shea: Sure, Happy. Why bother to find out what Greg actually said before condemning him?

Happy-Zappy: Mark, do you feed and clothe your children or do you send them out to panhandle and wander the streets, and find what food they can in dumpsters? Will you have your children chart each other?

Ichabod Bayer: Once we have a Catholic Monarch, we won't have to worry about this NFP nonsense anymore! Okay, just kidding. But seriously, did Greg actually advocate brothers and sisters helping each other chart? That sounds kinda icky.

TraddyBard: Dead skunk in the middle of the road

Dead skunk in the middle of the road.

You got yer dead skunk in the middle of the road,

Stinkin' to high Heaven!

BigGunnTraddy: Hey, don't you make fun of Catholic Monarchy! Look at the wonders it's done for Monaco and Lichtenstein. Just you wait till we stage our coup and establish the Duke of Orleans here as King!

GwynnDiesel: Look, these RadTrads just can't deal with any of the mystic imagery in Church Tradition. I mean, in the Middle Ages the Virgin Mary was sometimes depicted barebreasted, nursing the Lord.

RadTraddy-Daddy: Don't you eroticize the Blessed Mother! She didn't have breasts. The Lord was nursed by a bird which gave him to drink milk from a Blessed Coconut. I read about it in the visions of Grunhilde of Thuringia. I have a deep devotion to the Holy Coconut of Nazareth.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Speaking of breasts, you know, when Karol Wojtyla (the erstwhile "Pope" John Paul II) visited Papua, New Guinea, he actually received a native woman there in native garb, bare-breasted! That proves that the Theology of the Body is evil!

RadTraddy-Daddy: And she wasn't wearing a mantilla, either... Modernist!

RadTraddy-Laddy: Heretic! [whispers] Do you see the connection?

RadTraddy-Daddy: Wow! It's worse than I thought.

NonTraddyMommy: In my experience as a parent, I've found it's really important to be open with your kids about sex, so that they learn the true Catholic understanding of it before they hear the world's corrupted version...

RadTraddy-Daddy: Some subjects are better not discussed. The next thing you know, you'll be talking like that pervert Popcak who says we should teach kids that sex is something good and pleasurable and holy.

RadTraddy-Laddy: God Save Us! We all know that all that nonsense about the "unitive" dimension of sex is just giving license to lasciviousness. It's really only holy to want sex when you intend to conceive a child. And even then you should close your eyes and try not to enjoy it too much.

Maddy-Traddy: I always insist that the room be pitch-black and that we be under the covers, so as to preserve modesty.

RadTraddys: A virtuous Catholic woman!

Fr. Rob: Happy, why couldn't you just ask Greg to clarify himself before passing judgment?

Happy-Zappy: Once someone has written something, his statement is what it is. A person always writes exactly what he intends to convey and I am always able to discern fully what he meant. Therefore further conversation is pointless. If you don't want me to pass judgment on your thoughts, then keep them to yourself.

Mark Shea: Will you people please READ what Greg wrote? Look, Greg didn't advocate that brothers chart their sister's cycles, he simply described that some NFP families taught their kids how to do it, and that some families objected to that on the basis of modesty.

Happy-Zappy: Well, then it might not be so bad. But I'm still suspicious. That Popcak is a slippery character.

Maddy-Traddy: All those NFP people are slippery. I'll bet the mucus has something to do with it.

RomanticTrad: Doesn't all that charting and mucus-checking seem unnatural? I mean, how is that stuff a prelude to sex? I prefer romance.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Romance is OK, as long as proper decorum is observed. I've even been known, when in an amorous mood, to dance the minuet or gavotte with my wife.

Happy-Zappy: I've been re-reading Popcak, and he doesn't unequivocally condemn charting between siblings. He must be tacitly endorsing it, then! It is an unfailing rule of logic that whatever you do not completely condemn is at least partially approved. So Popcak really is advocating a sexual experimenting on kids!

RadTraddys: You finally have seen the light! We've been saying all along that Popcak is a sicko, and so is his friend Shea.

RadTraddy-Daddy: They're doing it under the banner of JP II's Theology of the Body! And JPII wouldn't do anything about the pedophiles. Do you see the connection?

Rad Traddy-Laddy: Wow! It's worse than I thought. You know who we need here now? Joe D'Hippolito! He'd see how it all fits together!

Cauldron Pyre: And what's all this sunshine-and-lollipops Popcak and Shea are spreading about joy and happiness and love? Doesn't he know that our scowls, frowns, and sour-faced grim looks are just as pleasing to God as smiles and light-heartedness?

ShellyJelly: Could someone explain to me why it would actually be morally wrong for a brother to help his sister with charting?

RadTraddys: Feuh! How dare you try to force us to make an argument! We have expressed our repulsion at such behavior, because it is ICKY. We have condemned such goings-on as WEIRD. There is no provision for anything like it in the Catechism of Trent or in the writings of Marian Horvat, Ph.D (Peace Be On Her!). Our disapprobation is sufficient moral censure. To the Outer Darkness with Popcak, Shea, Johansen, and all the other Neo-Catholic stooges of the false Vatican II regime! Anathema sint! Damnatae memoriae eorum sint!

posted by Fr. Rob 1:21 AM

16 Comments

[Diago]

This whole thing is actually heartbreaking. Imagine a recent convert-mom with teenage kids reading through this after seeing Popcak on EWTN or hearing him on the radio. She stumbles upon this passage:

"You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family, but as long as the person whose chart it is (the mother or sister) is not terribly opposed to the idea (you really have to respect her opinion on this), I feel favorably toward the idea because it decreases the chances that your young teens will eroticize their sexuality."

The poor woman is liable to think that this craziness actually represents Catholicism. You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family... Popcak actually makes it sound as if it is an issue all Catholic families address.

"Well, Martha, Patrick turns 14 this year. Do you think we should have him chart Margaret this year?"

This is NOT a conversation Catholic families I know HAVE EVER HAD. This bizzarre S*** will scare potential converts off permanently.

This guy is nuts. Nuts. Like you., i read it to my wife and she said "creepy." If this guys was just a DRE in Toledo, we could ignore it. But he is on EWTN and constantly engaged in self-promotion. Scary.

[Maximilian]

This was posted by a priest? What is the priesthood coming to?

Now that I think of it, Fr. Rob Johanssen, wasn't he the priest who was attacking Michael Rose? I thought his bishop shut down his blog before he got sued for libel.

[sinkspur]

Now that I think of it, Fr. Rob Johanssen, wasn't he the priest who was attacking Michael Rose?

Michael Rose, with Deal Hudson, is on the board that sponsors Popcak.

[Desdemona]

Well, truthfully, I said on the thread that I thought going into detail with teenagers about NFP was strange.

Going into detail at that age in and of itself isn't strange. I knew all about it in 7th grade more or less because I babysat at a house where the parents were instructors and I heard the spiel one night when they were teaching. Didn't bug me then, and didn't in 9th and 10th grade when we learned it in school - from priest, no less.

What's creepy and definitely disgusting is the entire notion that parents would ask their kids to do it and, even worse, have brothers read their sisters' charts. My brothers would have given my parents some of the worst looks if that was even suggested. Some things just weren't discussed.

[Maximilian]

Allow me to introduce you to my good friends Pete Vere and Shawn McElhinney, two quite "Traditionalist" types whom I am quite happy to call friends.

This is actually what started the whole discussion -- when I pointed out that in another thread posted by Diago these guys were claiming to be traditionalists when they are not; they are anti-traditionalists. Pete Vere seems to be making a career out of attacking traditionalists. The other 2 only do it for fun on an amateur basis, apparently.

Because they don't go around looking to drum fellow Catholics out of the Church for using the wrong buzzwords

Seems to me that this is precisely what they spend their time doing. Does anyone else besides me see the irony of someone having blogs named "spastic sphincter" and "lidless eye" while at the same time trying to put on an attitude of wounded innocence?

[TradicalRC]

Wow, it's like having a glimpse into Catholic hell.

[Maximilian]

Michael Rose, with Deal Hudson, is on the board that sponsors Popcak.

Rose and Hudson were both on the board of Catholic Citizens of Illinois that posted the Popcak article on their website. This was an article exposing the weirdness of Popcak, not sponsoring him.

[sinkspur]

This was an article exposing the weirdness of Popcak, not sponsoring him.

OK. I misunderstood.

[Maximilian]

On the other hand, this is actually very reassuring. If you thought that your contributions were just dropping into the ether unheard and with no impact on the world, a response like this makes it clear that your reactions to these threads can have some impact.

[Maximilian]

OK. I misunderstood.

I had the same misunderstanding at first when this was posted on the previous thread.

[GOP_Thug_Mom]

Obviously, Mr. Popcak was just asking for it when he made those comments, but I think you all are WAY over-reacting. What do y'all think about Mother Theresa, who taught everyone she could NFP--right there on the streets? When you learn NFP, whether through the Billings Method or sympto-thermal, etc., you cannot help but have the most profound respect for the sex act, and the sheer miracle that the creation of ANY life is!

[Maximilian]

Mr. Popcak was just asking for it when he made those comments, but I think you all are WAY over-reacting.

You may be right, but did you read the original article regarding Popcak? It was more than a couple of comments. Here is the link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/966863/posts

[GOP_Thug_Mom]

No, Diago, what's HEART BREAKING is nearly half of the Catholics who receive Our Lord in Holy Communion are C-O-N-T-R-A-C-E-P-T-I-N-G!!!!

If you want to go back to a key slippery slope in our history, the Episcopalian conference (forgot the name of it) in 1928-29 that decided contraception was okay in extreme circumstances was the beginning of what we have today. Up until that point, every Christian denomination had condemned ANY form of birth control as Onanism. So, while all the Christians were being "good, modest and upright", by not going into all the gory details, their children and grandchildren were learning all about contracepting from the enemies of life.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I was the first one to make the incest comment. I guess I am famous.

These 'gentlemen' certainly are obsessed with us. Interesting. Have they signed up? I'd have much more respect for the lot of them if they came here to debate us instead of hiding over there on their own little blogs like spineless cowards.

I've been a Registered Nurse for over 14 years. Most of my experience is in pediatrics: psych and ER. I have Master's level credits towards a Marriage and Family Therapy degree in addition to extensive self-study and my own personal work. If Popcak and friends want to come over here and debate me fair and square regarding the behaviors he advocates, I'm ready and willing.

Consider this your invitation gentlemen.

[sitetest]

Dear old and tired,

My wife has read articles by this fellow, and is rather shocked by this stuff cited here. She says he's usually quite orthodox, even a bit stuffy.

I don't really understand what's going on.


sitetest

[sitetest]

Dear GTM,

"Obviously, Mr. Popcak was just asking for it when he made those comments, but I think you all are WAY over-reacting. What do y'all think about Mother Theresa, who taught everyone she could NFP--right there on the streets? When you learn NFP, whether through the Billings Method or sympto-thermal, etc., you cannot help but have the most profound respect for the sex act, and the sheer miracle that the creation of ANY life is! "

Hey, I think NFP is real cool, too. But if you were to ask me at, say, 15, to chart my sister, I'd have likely either run screaming in terror, or beaten the daylights out of you. We are talking about WAY weird and creepy.

And the thought of one of my sons charting my wife...

It leaves me speechless.

I remember being taught that a husband and wife doing NFP together creates more intimacy between husband and wife, and deepens the marital bond.

So why on God's green earth would I want my SON to engage in such marital intimacy-inducing behavior with his SISTER or his MOTHER????

Give me a break!

Sorry, I just can't get from here to there. It seems to be to be gross, perverted, immoral, bizarre, and things to which I can't even give names.


sitetest

[GOP_Thug_Mom]

I went and read it. I'll admit he comes off as a "modernist" (from reading the definition), but what everyone here is arguing about is something that SHOULD BE DISCUSSED by ALL Catholics. I spent 10 years doing pro-life work. I learned quickly the origination of the abortion mindset--the contracepting mentality that says, "Sex is for enjoyment, not babies".

To give you my own personal story--I'm 37, my mother is 65. 15 years ago, when my sister got married, I gave her an NFP book at her bridal shower. My mother later called to chastise me for giving her something like that(after assuring my sister I was out of line.) She said it was none of my business. My mother used rhythm, and was in NO WAY for any birth control, as it is against Church Teaching. She just thought I was being "immodest" by giving that to her. I later discovered my sister was on the pill. And imagine how I felt when I went to the hospital on the joyous occasion of the birth of her 3rd child, only to learn that she was being prepped for a tubal ligation.

When everyone refuses to discuss real, moral alternatives to contracepting, where does it leave the nominal Catholics?? I guess they'll be left to suffer the consequences of doing things the "worldly" way.

[Diago]

This strange response from Father Johansen has to be somewhat of a vindication for Michael Rose. From reading his post, this priest is almost as strange as Popcak. It is also a dishonest response.

Every Catholic I have talked to thinks Popcak words are creepy - - not just traditionalists. My mother would likely vomit if I mentioned this to her and she has not been to a Latin Mass in years. As Al pointes out, Rod Dreher's response was "ICK!" Sinkspur similarly sees these comments as un-Catholic and not worth of a defense.

Mark Shea saught to deflect attention from Popcak's strangeness by trying to pin this thing on the traditionalists. Father "Rob" followed suit.

But make no mistake, if I quoted Popcak's comments to all twenty Catholic couples on my block, each and every one of them would laugh in my face. And only half of them even attend Mass on Sunday, not quite radtrads.

[dsc]

"When everyone refuses to discuss real, moral alternatives to contracepting, where does it leave the nominal Catholics?"

Hey, you want to have adults discussing NFP in an appropriate context and forum, GREAT!

You want to talk about involving adolescents...

I'll go with EEEEEWWWWWW.

[sockmonkey]

I see that now Popcak has explained his charting comment on Shea's Blogspot.
He mentions Love and Responsibility. I read that book, and I didn't come away with the conclusion that Popcak did.
As a Mother, and a former child, I find the whole making charting a family affair pretty creepy.
I am assuming he has never mentioned this idea on EWTN radio or television. I certainly couldn't see this particular idea translating into: "Oh, that's such a great idea. I'm going to send EWTN a big fat donation right after I tell Johnny and Suzie to get a notebook and a thermometer."