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To: RussianConservative
an Orthodox Christian perspective. This view holds firmly to the centrality of Christ, a doctrine which is not negotiable, yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity.

Then this viewpoint is wrong, because Jesus said otherwise. He said no one comes to the Father, except by Him.

4 posted on 08/21/2003 9:06:21 AM PDT by TexasRepublic
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To: TexasRepublic
I look forward to reading this. I don't know if I will agree, but I want to make this comment prior to reading it.

The two propositions "that salvation can be found outside Christianity" and that "no one comes to the Father, except by Him" might not conflict. (Incidentally, the former is theological speculation; the latter is Biblical truth and thus ABSOLUTELY INCONTESTABLE, period).

Remember, those that are saved are saved as a result of the Son choosing them and intervening on their behalf to the Father. The Son chooses who will be saved, period.

And of course those that are saved are saved by the work of the Son. That is also incontestable and can't be negotiable.

That said, is it possible that those who are outside "Christianity" - which I would say would be those who do not cognitively honor Christ as Lord and Saviour - have been saved by the Son?

I think that Romans 1 gives some latitude for speculation in that regard, as some know a little about God, but reject Him. They are thus blameworthy...might it also be true that there might be some who know a little about God and seek him ever more, within the limits of their culture? Perhaps so. If that is the case, then there might be some who are saved by Christ, but without their acknowledging Him (at least until the moment when salvation becomes relevant, namely, at death).

I would add that anyone who expressly denies the Son (and/or the Trinity) can not be saved, by my reading of Scripture. So the category of those whom this idea could affect is quite small, perhaps, even, nonexistent.

Again, I don't know the answer to this, but I would suggest that the statements already given may not be completely opposed...
6 posted on 08/21/2003 9:21:01 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: TexasRepublic
Christ's word are true, but if you had read attentively the entire article, you would see that Christ's saving work is not coextensive with "Christianity". Christ unites our human nature with the divine nature in his person, thereby making possible the union by grace of individual human being with God's Uncreated Energies or Glory.

The point on which the Orthodox confess ignorance is precisely who will be saved: we do not know whether any outside the visible bounds of Christ's Holy Church are saved (though evidence from our tradition suggests this is possible), nor do we know (save in the case of those whose glorification God has been pleased to reveal to His Church, who are thus revered as saints) who among those whom it would seem from this-worldly observation are a part of His Mystical Body (the Church) are indeed saved. ('Call no man holy until he has died,' is a saying of the Fathers.)

On another thread I pointed to the incident in the life of St. Gregory the Dialogist as recorded by a monk of Whitby, in which the sainted Pope prayed for the soul of the Emperor Tarjan (a pagan) because of a deed of charity the Emperor had done, and the dead Emperor was 'baptized with the tears' of the saint. Observe that the salvation of Tarjan was salvation through Christ: the prayers of a Christian provided the 'motive power' for his removal from hell to paradise.

The Church prays generally for all mankind, and every Pentecost for those confined in hell. We are forbidden from believing that all will be saved, but who, in spite of dying outside the communion of the Church, in spite of the falsehood of beliefs held during life, but aided by the prayers of the Church and perhaps by fragmentary true belief and deeds worthy of Christian, may be saved who would seem lost, we do not know.

11 posted on 08/21/2003 9:51:04 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: TexasRepublic
you are correct. Perhaps Pat. Bart. is spouting some revisionist, ecuminist claptrap. The Orthodox perspective is: Salvation is found within the Church. There are many decisions of ecumenical councils which uphold this view. Pat. Bart is just trying to have his cake and eat it too.
45 posted on 08/21/2003 10:07:58 PM PDT by OldCorps
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