An Orthodox Christian View of Non-Christian Religions

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America ^

[George W. Bush]

The Gospel is simple, not intellectual.

What? There was nothing intellectual about the point I made. Show me where I was being intellectual.

[DannyTN]

"But the problem with this notion is that it ignores the very simple John 3:16"

Good Point. Here's the whole passage

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It's really hard to interpret that any other way. I hope that there is a way that people who know God and ask Him for forgiveness are granted forgiveness through the cross even though they may not familiar with Jesus. But I have practically no confidence that is the case. Rather I suspect that God would lead every one who is truly repentant before Him to Jesus.

[George W. Bush]

Not true, if you notice article, for example, specifically says we not accept that all cultures or religions equal. Further we not elevate Islam to same level as Christianity thus will never kiss Koran.

No, the article suggests that we can be saved by Christ even if we don't know Him. A Buddhist or a Muslim could worship their gods and live a 'good' life by the standards of natural law and would then still be saved by Christ. That is what they are suggesting.

They're saying it doesn't matter what you believe, just live a good life according to natural law and you go to heaven. Maybe with a purgatory stopoff first before the prayers of the faithful bail you out.

However sweetly phrased, that is what this article says.

[George W. Bush]

Exact reason why 40,000+ branchs protestants in America...

Normally, I wouldn't bother when this comes up but I thought I'd make sure you understand that this is a vastly overinflated number, peddled by Rome.

No, there are nowhere near 40,000 distinct denominations or theological groups among non-Roman/non-Orthodox churches in America. It's just a silly bit of Roman propaganda.

[George W. Bush]

I agree, but ROMANS makes it tough for those not covered by CHRIST'S BLOOD since all have sinned.What about those millions NEVER exposed to the gospel before and after CHRIST incarnation?I know some speculate HE descended into HELL to witness to them.And do we go directly to HEAVEN or HELL when we die,or are we in a holding place until THE SECOND COMING?

For those who have found a new birth in Christ, these are not weighty matters. The love and justice of God is perfect. We are not granted to know all things in this life. I doubt we'll know all things in the next life either, a popular notion that has little scriptural merit.

[RussianConservative]

No it says that it is possible since all things possible through Father. Father in end determines who saved and who not. Even those in Orthodox not guarenteed, it is Father's decision. That is why it say that you know saints are because they already chosen and manifest in some way but no one alive know for sure.

[RussianConservative]

So jews condemned? They choosen peoples of God but they not accept Christ. What about hermit in Hemalias who never heard of Christ or hundred millions of past who never heard of Christ...were they born to be condemned since God knew they would never hear Word?

[RussianConservative]

By way, if you answer yes to these questions how you say God is Just then?

[George W. Bush]

So jews condemned? They choosen peoples of God but they not accept Christ. What about hermit in Hemalias who never heard of Christ or hundred millions of past who never heard of Christ...were they born to be condemned since God knew they would never hear Word?

By way, if you answer yes to these questions how you say God is Just then?

I have no need to sit in judgment of God's mercy or justice. No child of God should need to.

I am content in knowing that I know enough but that I do not know everything about His ways or His justice. It is enough to have been granted His grace through Christ.

I'll leave it to others to judge God's justice and mercy and to say that the plain meaning of scripture doesn't really mean what it so plainly says over and over and over...

[ConservativeDude]

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Abraham was, like anyone else who is saved, saved through Christ.

[ConservativeDude]

well, it is actually a bit more complicated than that.


I would suggest the following from the Westminster Confession [scriptural references too many to include]:


By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

Again, it seems that each of the Persons of the Trinity plays a part in the complete act of justification: "Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation."

That is, perhaps, a more complete statement of how this works than my hasty post earlier.

[ConservativeDude]

"I doubt we'll know all things in the next life either"

i like that point. we aren't going to become God, after all. i agree that this view of the hereafter isn't as likely to win as many fans...

[George W. Bush]

That's all fine and good, given how limited a treatment it is. But it's more convincing to read it from the scriptural footnotes upon which they based their formal theological document.

I do generally prefer the Baptist Confessions. They predated the Westminster and it's quite obvious how much was copied across. Even though it was more elegantly written in the Westminster. The scriptures have a mysterious spiritual quality that the mere writings of men cannot aspire to.

Scripture teaches us that we can only approach Christ via the Father's will and His predestination. And we cannot approach the Father without the intervention and sanctification of Christ's sacrifice for us.

Many will claim it is a paradox. But it is actually quite wonderful, a glorious thing.

The nature of the relationship between our Saviour and our Father is a very sweet thing to contemplate. So many, hobbled with a worldly theology, stumble over these teachings. But they are wonderfully clear when we stop trying to apologize for God's mercy and judgment. Who are we to even entertain an opinion on such things. Without Christ, we are unfit even to glorify the name of God.

[taxcontrol]

Lets see my list would be:

Conservative Protestants - Best
Liberal Protestants - those who have missed the point or who have not read the book
Catholics - not bad, but got some strange ways of looking at things
Jews - God's chosen people but too bad they missed the Messiah

Islam - followers of a madman that wanted to be Jew/Christian but could never figure out how

Others - Prime witness/conversion opportunity

[George W. Bush]

i like that point. we aren't going to become God, after all. i agree that this view of the hereafter isn't as likely to win as many fans...

Well, it's a little pet peeve. I'm sure you've heard people gush how wonderful it will be in heaven because they will finally know everything. I don't think anyone promised that in scripture. I've even met a few people who claim they're going to Raptured and then they'll fly around the universe exploring new suns and planets and just having a wonderful time. Sounds like Star Trek Heaven to me. Not much like what we read of in scripture.

I think we'll stand before the Father in awe. And when we see Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is King of Kings. I think we'll do it without even thinking about it. And I include those who will be judged and cast into hell later.

And I think one look at God will shut a lot of mouths. We'll know with one look that we are not such as to ask questions of Him or question His justice or mercy. It will be all too clear then.

Our Lord paid the price for us. I think the Father intends that we will all acknowledge Christ rightfully as the Lord and Judge of all creation before we are judged. The Father did not allow His Son's blood to be spilled cheaply. We will acknowledge that He is the King.

[Guyin4Os]

Rather I suspect that God would lead every one who is truly repentant before Him to Jesus

The word "repentance" and its derivatives appear nowhere in the gospel of John. The Gospel of John says that it is belief in the Son of God that results in salvation. Repentance is important, to be sure. However examine the word "repentance." Meta=change noia=mind. Truly repentant people are those who changed their mind about Christ. Formerly they did not believe in him, now they do believe in him. That is saving faith.

Now watch me get flamed by the members of the MacArthur Lordship salvation cult.

[DannyTN]

"A Buddhist or a Muslim could worship their gods and live a 'good' life by the standards of natural law and would then still be saved by Christ. That is what they are suggesting."

The problem is their definition of good. God says that there are none good. They define good from man's perspective as though being on the right end of the Bell curve will get you to heaven. God, on the other hand, defines good from His perspective. And He is Holy and knows no sin.

Technically if you lived the 10 commandments your whole life, you wouldn't have sin and you wouldn't need salvation. But since God says none are righteous, we know the Buddist and Muslim didn't live perfect lives. (Not to mention they would have crashed on the 1st commandment anyway). Thus they need Jesus.

[No.6]

Hrmph.

The entirety of the non-exclusivity claim rests not on a Biblical exegesis, but on the footnote [10] which leads us to

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1885652054/qid=1061498961/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/002-0731783-2227220?v=glance&s=books

in which the excerpted pages begin with the rampantly Marxist:

"Over the last decade it has become only too clear that our subscription to the dominantly materialistic and mechanistic philosophies which determine the course of what we call the 'natural' sciences and their ramifications in the technological, industrial, political, economic, educational and practically every other sphere, has led us to build a type of society that desecrates and mutiliates human and natural life in all its aspects. ... We cannot prevent the proliferation of armed conflict and mass murder while we still regard the production and sale of deadly weapons not as an inhuman form of criminality and hypocrisy, but as something in which nation states and their human labor forces can quite legitimately engage in order to support their economies. Nor can the fight against pollution and mass starvation or anything else have any chance of success, so long as the means through which it is waged involve the same 'logic of production,' the same free-market selling techniques and the same ruthless competitive exploitation that have produced these ecological and social catastrophes in the first place."

And that's page ONE! Hitlery herself could hardly turn out a shriller diatribe against conservative principles.

Small wonder that by the time this "creative interpreter of the living tradition of the Orthodox Church" gets around to Christianity and other religions he rejects the idea that Christ is, as He said, the only Way, out of hand.

To their shame it looks like the American Greek Orthodox church has elected to attach itself to this along with radical environmentalism and other wackiness, which can be read on their site.

[George W. Bush]

bump

I just wonder how long before some of them might start talking about how there's no need to evangelize the Jews, that they don't need Christ.

That's where Rome's doctrine of Invincible Ignorance leads when you follow it. I'm just not sure if the Orthodox are aware that this is path that led Rome to stop presenting a witness to Jews and allowed their pope to get away with kissing the Koran (paying homage to a false god and a false scripture that explicitly denies Christ's crucifixion and resurrection).

[knarf]

I apologize ... I didn't mean you.

Actually I was agreeing with you and commenting that this thread would get into the 'higher thinking' of ecumenicalism.