Should some (Catholic) hymns be laid to rest?

The Tidings ^ | August 8, 2003 | George Weigel

[NYer]

Anyone care to 'chime' in? Desdemona is back from vacation and will have plenty to add to this thread!

I'll start. My list begins with Amazing Grace. After years of cringing each time it was sung in church, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that that my suspicions about its place in the Catholic liturgy, are borne out by the expert team in the Answer Forum at EWTN:

"Amazing Grace is coming out of the Protestant theological tradition and reflects its emphasis on sola gratia, grace alone. In verse one the text says "Amazing grace! How sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me!" While this sounds very humble, and by itself appears inoffensive to Catholic ears, in light of the theological tradition it comes from it suggests the complete depravity of man which was at the root of Luther's theology. Catholic teaching rejects that. Human nature is wounded, but remains capable of natural good acts, that is, acts of natural virtue, both moral and intellectual, as opposed to supernatural virtue (which IS a gift from God).

In keeping with that the Catholic must also reject verse two, which asserts that sanctifying grace is given with belief. "How precious did that grace appear,The hour I first believed." While a certain natural faith in the credibility of revelation disposes the person to request entrance into Christ's Church and to desire the "Amazing Grace" of Justification, sanctifying grace (actual justice), the grace of the theological virtues (faith, hope and charity), the supernatural moral virtues (without which a meritorious act, as opposed to an act of the natural man cannot be done) and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (which perfect man) are communicated at Baptism, NOT "the hour I first believed." Granted a Catholic could read into that the hour of baptism, when supernatural faith is actually communicated, but that is not the intended meaning of the hymn, which reflects the theology that one must only "believe on the Lord Jesus" and one is granted salvation. Implied in the balance of the verses is the doctrine of Blessed Assurance, that "once saved" one's salvation is assured - a doctrine at serious odds with Scripture, and therefore Catholic teaching, and contrary to the good of man.

Since there is an obligation to use only doctrinally sound hymns in the Liturgy, Amazing Grace is at best equivocal and at worse seriously contrary to the Catholic theology of grace."

[Wrigley]

Do y'all sing any of Luther's hymns?

[TotusTuus]

Do y'all sing any of Luther's hymns?

I believe we do, at least some of the Christmas hymns.

[drstevej]

As a Calvinist, I love the words to this hymn of Charles Wesley.

3. Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quick'ning ray:
I woke -- the dungeon flamed with light!
My chains fell off, my heart was free
I rose, went forth and followed Thee.



4. No condemnation now I dread
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine!
Alive in Him, my living Head
And clothed in righteousness divine
Bold I approach the 'ternal throne
And claim the crown thru Christ my own.

[B Knotts]

Very interesting. I have wondered about the theology of many of the hymns in the OCP music issue, and as you point out, "Amazing Grace" is one of those that stands out in my mind as being very Protestant in nature.

You really have to wonder sometimes about just what is going on over at OCP, and why most parishes blindly accept what they publish in their music issue.

[NYer]

What happened to the first two stanzas?

[TotusTuus]

While a certain natural faith in the credibility of revelation disposes the person to request entrance into Christ's Church

Hmm, I don't know about this. Let's see, Grace builds on nature so that, what you are calling "a certain natural faith", I might call "credible". Or maybe as you have it. I don't know. What I do know, is that the request is itself a result of supernatural Grace called 'actual Grace', not to be confused with 'santifying Grace'. (c.f. "No one can come to me unless the Father draw him") It is at Baptism that the habitual Grace of "santifying Grace" is received, as you state.

In any event, "Amazing Grace" is much, much, much better than many of the OCP ditleys that are sung.

[TotusTuus]

Weigel nails it. I just wish he would have written more.

[TotusTuus]

santifying = sanctifying

[NYer]

Here is a Catholic "classic". Does the English version work for the Calvinist liturgy? or is it a service?

O Salutaris Hostia

O Saving Victim

---

O salutaris Hostia
Quae coeli pandis ostium.
Bella premunt hostilia;
Da robur, fer auxilium.

Uni trinoque Domino
Sit sempiterna gloria:
Qui vitam sine termino,
Nobis donet in patria.
Amen.

---

O Saving Victim opening wide
The gate of heaven to all below.
Our foes press on from every side;
Thine aid supply, Thy strength bestow.

To Thy great name be endless praise
Immortal Godhead, One in Three;
Oh, grant us endless length of days,
In our true native land with Thee.
Amen.

---

O Salutaris Hostia is from the last two verses of Verbum Supernum, one of the five Eucharistic Hymns written by St. Thomas Aquinas, (1225-1274), at the request of Pope Urban IV (1261-1264) when the Pope first instituted the Feast of Corpus Christi in 1264. The prayer was used most commonly at Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.

[NYer]

Weigel nails it. I just wish he would have written more.

Are there certain composers who lean towards any one of the examples he has used? You Are Mine is from David Haas. While I enjoy his music, it best fits the contemporary music groups.

Where does Owen Alstott fit? I so love one of his compositions - O Holy Mary. The Refrain goes like this:

O holy Dwelling Place of God.
O holy Temple of the Word.
O holy Mary, holy Mother of God.

I had never heard of Mary referred to in those terms until someone in the forum pointed out that the Greeks honor Mary with these words. "Holy Dwelling Place" - how fitting. It is an absolutely beautiful and moving piece.

[drstevej]

1. And can it be that I should gain
An int'rest in the Savior's blood?
Died He for me who caused His pain?
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

CHORUS

Amazing love! How can it be
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me!

2. He left His father's throne above
So free, so infinite His grace!
Emptied Himself of all but love
And bled for Adam's helpless race!
'Tis mercy all, immense and free
For O my God, it found out me.

[NYer]

Do y'all sing any of Luther's hymns?

Occasionally, they'll crank up "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God". Undoubtedly there are others but their titles elude me right now.

[drstevej]

Here's a Luther hymn likely not sung even in NO RC churches [which ultima dubs as "Protestant"]....

Look down, O Lord, from heaven behold


1. Look down, O Lord, from heaven behold,
And let thy pity waken!
How few the flock within thy fold,
Neglected and forsaken!
Almost thou'lt seek for faith in vain,
And those who should thy truth maintain
Thy Word from us have taken.



2. With frauds which they themselves invent
Thy truth they have confounded;
Their hearts are not with one consent
On thy pure doctrine grounded;
And, whilst they gleam with outward show,
They lead thy people to and fro,
In error's maze astounded.



3. God surely will uproot all those
With vain deceits who store us,
With haughty tongue who God oppose,
And say, "Who'll stand before us?
By right or might we will prevail;
What we determine cannot fail,
For who can lord it o'er us?"



4. For this, saith God, I will arise,
These wolves my flock are rending;
I've heard my people's bitter sighs
To heaven my throne ascending:
Now will I up, and set at rest
Each weary soul by fraud opprest,
The poor with might defending.



5. The silver seven times tried is pure
From all adulteration;
So, through God's word, shall men endure
Each trial and temptation:
Its worth gleams brighter through the cross,
And, purified from human dross,
It shines through every nation.



6. Thy truth thou wilt preserve, O Lord,
From this vile generation;
Make us to lean upon thy word,
With calm anticipation.
The wicked walk on every side
When, 'mid thy flock, the vile abide
In power and exaltation.

[american colleen]

Oh! I read this piece today in my archdiocesan newspaper "The Pilot." I explained to my 14 year old who George Weigel is and what he said in this column. I like her to know I am not the only *kook* who says this stuff (although not nearly as eloquently!).

The songs where we sing like we are Jesus or God really, really bother me. I don't sing them at all. Today at Mass it was 1. One bread one body; 2. Open wide the gates; and 3. I am the bread of life. I just couldn't do it!

I go to all different parishes in the Archdiocese of Boston and the Archdiocese of Fall River. Even the most orthodox ones sing almost all, if not all of the OCP Hymns. Even if it is a "smells and bells" parish, you get the modern stuff almost 100% of the time.

Last week at Mass the cantor sung "Panis Angelicus" - I couldn't believe it!!! I haven't heard that song at Mass in years and years! But he sang it in English... not so good in English. It lost a lot.

[Litany]

Tantum Ergo Sacramentum is one of my favorites. But since we never have Benediction any more at my church, I never hear it. But I do sing it myself sometimes.

[american colleen]

Butchaknow, upon reflection, lots/most people I know do like the OCP stuff... again, the traditional hymn lovers are in the minority. I'm not sure if that is because parishes don't use them and people don't know them anymore, but man, I see people belting out "On Eagles Wings" and/or "Here I am Lord."

Those two songs above really get me. But I don't think it is my business to dictate music tastes to others. I just wish the parishes would at least split the difference... couple of traditionals and a couple of moderns... everybody (sorta) happy. You can't have your way all the time! The modern stuff is here to stay.

[Salvation]

I posted this to the Sacred Music thread attn. Desdemona about a week ago -- guess I should have included you! LOL

Music at mass Question from jack on 07-03-2003:

In the apologetics site it said the songs, Mary did you know, and Amazing Grace doesn't reflect Catholic teaching. What words in each song does not reflect our teaching. These songs are sung at Mass all the time.

Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 08-05-2003:

Sadly, it is true they are sung, as are others, all the time.

Amazing Grace is coming out of the Protestant theological tradition and reflects its emphasis on sola gratia, grace alone. In verse one the text says "Amazing grace! How sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me!" While this sounds very humble, and by itself appears inoffensive to Catholic ears, in light of the theological tradition it comes from it suggests the complete depravity of man which was at the root of Luther's theology. Catholic teaching rejects that. Human nature is wounded, but remains capable of natural good acts, that is, acts of natural virtue, both moral and intellectual, as opposed to supernatural virtue (which IS a gift from God).

In keeping with that the Catholic must also reject verse two, which asserts that sanctifying grace is given with belief. "How precious did that grace appear,The hour I first believed." While a certain natural faith in the credibility of revelation disposes the person to request entrance into Christ's Church and to desire the "Amazing Grace" of Justification, sanctifying grace (actual justice), the grace of the theological virtues (faith, hope and charity), the supernatural moral virtues (without which a meritorious act, as opposed to an act of the natural man cannot be done) and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (which perfect man) are communicated at Baptism, NOT "the hour I first believed." Granted a Catholic could read into that the hour of baptism, when supernatural faith is actually communicated, but that is not the intended meaning of the hymn, which reflects the theology that one must only "believe on the Lord Jesus" and one is granted salvation. Implied in the balance of the verses is the doctrine of Blessed Assurance, that "once saved" one's salvation is assured - a doctrine at serious odds with Scripture, and therefore Catholic teaching, and contrary to the good of man.

Since there is an obligation to use only doctrinally sound hymns in the Liturgy, Amazing Grace is at best equivocal and at worse seriously contrary to the Catholic theology of grace.

As for "Mary did you know", a similar situation pertains. Its coming out of a theological tradition that tends to reduce Mary to an ordinary mother and wife, and eliminates her perpetual virginity and sinlessness. While the Church has not formally taught that Mary had detailed knowledge of Her Son's future, Our Lady would at minimum have known the Scriptures and what the Messiah would do and suffer. She certainly knew, from the Annunciation, Who her Son was and what His mission would be. In addition, a number of saints have had highly developed mystical lives from an early age (4, 5, 6 etc.), so it would be incongruous to suggest that Mary did not have mystical insights into the Scriptures, or even private revelations regarding the Divine plan. Indeed, later Catholic mystics affirm this conclusion of logic.

Particularly troublesome is the verse, "Did you know that your baby boy, has come to make you new; this child that you delivered, will soon deliver you." It at least calls into question the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which teaches that in virtue of the Redemption, Mary was conceived without original sin. This occured about 44 years prior to Calvary. So, while this verse correctly alludes to her need for redemption (in the sense understood by the Church as preservation from falling), it places it in the future, rather than the past (with regard to original sin and personal sin), and the present (she was also preserved from falling at every moment of her life).

So, both songs are unfitting for Catholic use, as they at minimum call into question Catholic teaching, and if understood according to the lyricists' intention, teach contrary to it.

COPYRIGHT 2003

[american colleen]

But since we never have Benediction any more at my church

How come?