Why anti-Catholicism remains alive and well

Our Sunday Visitor ^ | July 27, 2003 | Russell Shaw

[Onelifetogive]

Yes. Those who die in God's grace and friendship are assured of their eternal salvation.

Great...then can you tell me from the Catechism how one dies (or lives) in God's grace and friendship?

[Onelifetogive]

Yes. Those who die in God's grace and friendship are assured of their eternal salvation.

And...the reference number from the Catechism where I can verify that info.

[Coleus]

55 % of Catholics in NJ support Gay Marriage according to this poll.

NJ Poll finds majority for gay marriage
State survey's results questioned by critics

Tuesday, July 29, 2003
BY KATHY BARRETT CARTER Star-Ledger Staff

A majority of New Jerseyans support allowing gay couples to marry, according to a Zogby International Poll commissioned by advocates for legalizing same-sex unions.

In the poll, released yesterday, nearly 55 percent of likely voters agreed that gay couples should be able to marry, while 41 percent disagreed. The poll also found that 57 percent of Catholics supported gay marriage, even as the Vatican announced it plans to issue new instructions to bishops and Catholic politicians to oppose extending marriage to gay and lesbian couples.

Gay rights advocates said the poll shows there is broad public support for same-sex marriage. But opponents of gay marriage questioned the poll's methodology, noting the results are dramatically different from national polls showing most people oppose gay marriage.

New Jersey is shaping up as a major battleground in the fight over gay marriage. Seven gay couples have filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of a state law limiting marriage to heterosexuals. In addition, a bill pending in the Legislature would give gay couples and unmarried heterosexual couples the right to register as domestic partners and receive many of the same rights and privileges enjoyed by married couples.

Two Canadian provinces have legalized homosexual marriage. Earlier this year, Germany's high court upheld a same-sex marriage law.

"Like all other parents, we want to dance at our children's weddings, including those of our lesbian and gay children," said Clarice Zieja, president of the Bergen County chapter of Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, the state group that commissioned the poll. "It's really wonderful to know that the people of New Jersey agree."

The poll results conflict with other polls, including a national poll released last week by the Pew Research Center showing 53 percent oppose gay marriage.

John Tomicki, executive director of the League of American Families, a group that opposes same-sex marriage, charged that the Zogby poll "is meant to try to stampede the public and legislators with biased questions and statistics. It directly conflicts with the Pew poll because the questions were prepared by PFLAG and those who have a gay and lesbian marriage agenda."

Steven Goldstein, who is leading the campaign for gay marriage and the domestic partner bill on behalf of Lambda, a nonprofit legal advocacy group for gays, said the questions were prepared by Zogby with help from PFLAG. John Zogby, president and CEO of Zogby International, said the poll clearly shows support for gay marriage.

"No matter how the question is worded, the answers remain the same. More than half of likely voters support allowing gay couples to marry," Zogby said. "And a majority believe it would be better if the state stopped fighting the marriage lawsuit and used the resources to focus on problems like the economy."

Patrick Murray, associate director of The Star Ledger/ Eagleton-Rutgers poll, said "The numbers aren't like anything I've seen in any other poll about this issue, but it depends on how you ask the questions and where you ask the questions."

"I would find it very interesting if New Jersey is this far ahead of the nation in terms of progressive thought," he said. "New Jersey is always a few points ahead of the nation in opposition to the death penalty or support for gay rights in general, but not 180 degrees apart from the rest of the nation."

Other numbers reflect a dramatic change from earlier polls.

When New Jerseyans were asked whether they personally know someone who is gay, lesbian or bisexual, 77 percent said yes and 23 percent said no. Four years ago, 57 percent responded yes in a similar Star-Ledger/Eagleton-Rutgers poll.

According to the Zogby poll, gay marriage has support across the state, and the most in South Jersey, where 60 percent support it and 35 percent oppose. Whites favor same-sex marriage 56 percent to 40 percent. Nearly seven out of 10 Jews and Hispanics questioned said they favor gay marriage. A majority of Republicans, Protestants, African-Americans and Asian- Americans opposed gay marriage.

Gay rights leaders said while the poll won't affect the pending lawsuit, they believe it will help convince lawmakers to pass the domestic partnership bill.

"We're delighted. The poll reflects our experience with our friends and neighbors, and we hope it improves the chances of passage of the domestic partnership bill," said Michael Blake, president of the New Jersey chapter of the Stonewall Democrats. "I think this will help reassure people that there is strong support for it."

Pollsters interviewed 803 "likely voters" by telephone from July 15-19. The poll's margin of error is plus or minus 3.6 percentage points. The margin of error is greater for subsets such as race, religion, and political party.

[eastsider]

Those who die in God's grace and friendship are assured of their eternal salvation.

And...the reference number from the Catechism where I can verify that info.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1023.

[Titanites]

And...the reference number from the Catechism where I can verify that info.

1023, 1030, 1052.

[Onelifetogive]

Yes. Those who die in God's grace and friendship are assured of their eternal salvation.

Is God only friends with Catholics? Must one do good works to be "God's friend"? Does salvation come through God or his mother?

[Titanites]

Great...then can you tell me from the Catechism how one dies (or lives) in God's grace and friendship?

You can look for this yourself by referencing the Catechism online per eastsider's post #24.

[Titanites]

Is God only friends with Catholics? Must one do good works to be "God's friend"? Does salvation come through God or his mother?

You seem like you have a lot of interest in the teachings of the Catholic Church. Since the topic of this particular thread isn't about teaching the doctrine of the Catholic Church, I'd recommend you attend an RCIA class at a local church. If you send me a freepmail on where you are located, I can recommend a church for you to get started, with all the details you want.

[Onelifetogive]

: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels.

According to this the only requirement is being one of the faithful (or saints) and Baptism. Correct? The remainder concerns timing and whether a stint in purgutory is required...

[eastsider]

There's also a copy of the Catechism on the Vatican website. The index has links to any section you might care to explore.

[Onelifetogive]

You seem like you have a lot of interest in the teachings of the Catholic Church

I am only responding to your claim from a post above:

I'm talking about belief as taught according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You brought up the fact that some people fail to understand Catholic beliefs even when you explain them from the Catechism. I simply asked about the most basic Christian belief. Rather that a straight forward answer, I am refered to a RCIA class.

[Titanites]

I simply asked about the most basic Christian belief. Rather that a straight forward answer, I am refered to a RCIA class.

I've given you straight answers about the Catholic faith, but everytime you get an answer you have more questions, which is fine. But as I stated, this thread is not about giving you a lesson in basic Catholic doctrine and I'd like to keep it on topic. I take it from your response about my offer of RCIA classes that you really aren't interested.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Boooooo:)

BEcky

[Onelifetogive]

I've given you straight answers about the Catholic faith

Telling me that to go to heaven I must be "God's friend" is hardly a straight answer. How can one hear that answer and comply with it?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

But you know from my time spent here on FR I have seen that "anti-catholisism" ALOT of the time, not all, but alot, is no more then someone who disagrees with catholic beliefs, and IMO, that is just not right.

Becky

[Titanites]

??

[Titanites]

How can one hear that answer and comply with it?

See my response #32.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I am an ex-catholic, spent 12 yrs. in catholic schools. I HAVE seen and read numerous things here that the RCC has written down in black and white to back up that the claims NC's make are wrong. The thing that catholics will not admit to is that what ex-catholics claim they were taught IS what they were taught. I know what I was taught. It does not match what I have seen here. WHY are there so many false conceptions about what catholics believe. Because what NC's think catholics believe IS what is taught in the schools, you just won't admit it. I also believe there is a reason the catholic schools teach what they do, it's not just bad teachers.

Becky

[Codie]

But you know from my time spent here on FR I have seen that "anti-catholisism" ALOT of the time, not all, but alot, is no more then someone who disagrees with catholic beliefs, and IMO, that is just not right.

I believe you are correct,and I'm Catholic.We whine entirely too much.

[Titanites]

I know what I was taught. It does not match what I have seen here.

That's why there is a Catechism of the Catholic Church. People teach all sorts of things claiming it to be Catholic doctrine. But if it disagrees with the Catechism, it is incorrect.

The point I was making was that there are people here who present a false view of Catholic doctrine and even after being corrected and shown our actual beliefs, per the Catechism, they are back here the next day repeating their old canards like they never saw what the Catechism actually says. What's their purpose for doing this?