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To: lockeliberty; OrthodoxPresbyterian; jude24; P-Marlowe; snerkel; CARepubGal; Frumanchu; ...
We've had a few rounds on this one, and it's time to go.

This last word from me, and then you all feel free to close it out.

The Philippian Jailer has confirmed a few issues for me.

1. It is clear that the man was under conviction by the Holy Spirit and was unsaved. Conviction is a sign of God's grace working with an individual prior to their salvation.

2. It is clear to me that the salvation must have been contemporaneous with the regeneration. (Add into that, of course, the justification, sanctification, indwelling of the Spirit.)

3. Although convicted, the man was not yet saved per Paul's words. It is not possible to be unsaved and regenerated at the same time. Nor is it possible to be an unbeliever and regenerated at the same time.

4. It is possible to ask a holy, proper question before one is regenerated. This man, under conviction, asks "What must I do to be saved?" Since he is obviously not saved, and since salvation is at the same time as regeneration, then a man is able, under prevenient grace, to be sufficiently enlightened by the Holy Spirit to ask, "What must I do to be saved?"
553 posted on 12/10/2003 5:03:55 AM PST by xzins (Proud to be Army!)
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To: xzins
4. It is possible to ask a holy, proper question before one is regenerated. This man, under conviction, asks "What must I do to be saved?" Since he is obviously not saved, and since salvation is at the same time as regeneration, then a man is able, under prevenient grace, to be sufficiently enlightened by the Holy Spirit to ask, "What must I do to be saved?"

OK. Given this point, I have to turn to the rich young ruler. He asked a similar such question, but when presented with the answer rejected it. There is still the question of why the rich young ruler rejected it and the jailer accepted it.

I think regeneration has less to do with the asking of the question and more to do with the response to the answer received.

554 posted on 12/10/2003 6:25:37 AM PST by Frumanchu (mene mene tekel upharsin)
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To: xzins; Frumanchu; Jean Chauvin; RnMomof7; P-Marlowe; lockeliberty; jude24; RochesterFan; ...
feel free to close it out

On to something more important, eh?

For my last two cents (until I think of something else) the problem is that we live in a world that's drunken with Aristotelian logic.

Secular society indoctrinates us from birth to define existence in binary terms -- if this; then that. A and B, or ~A and B, or A and ~B, or ~A and ~B.

However, the Christian world view takes in a third force -- the seemingly contradictory, yet completely sovereign and omnipotent mind of God.

It's no coincidence that the Trinity is threefold, and that the third part of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, is the one which gives most people pause.

The very essence of Christianity is an affront to Aristotelian logic since it requires that we hold two, apparently contradictory beliefs, at the same time. And this third belief is not a synthesis of the first two. It is an entirely separate belief, i.e. "Christ is God. Christ is man. Christ is both God and man." Not a blending of the two, but an third entity.

So the basis of Christianity IS NOT LOGIC, although it is very logical, as barristers John Calvin and P-Marlowe often assert.

Thus, from before time, God knew the names of the elect, even though those names were still fallen and damned by original sin.

How can this be? Logic tells us that those factors are mutually-exclusive, that those names are either/or, damned or elect. But they are both, at the same time. As God wills.

So your search, xzins, for the logic behind Predestination is futile. Just as proving the logic of the Trinity is impossible.

"Regeneration" is a human description for the supernatural edict of God's will, known by Him from before time. There is a moment on Earth when man understands he's been regenerated (sometimes instantaneous; sometimes progressive, like Marlowe describes). But God has known it always. Any "gap" is from our perspective. The gift of eternal salvation is not just future tense salvation; it's also past tense. Our salvation will last forever and was written by God from before time -- eternal.

So all the logic in the world cannot ease your discomfort because the truth lies outside A and B. Ultimately, what gives us assurance are the questions with no logical answers except "God's ordained, holy and divine will."

Maybe as an exercise, since it runs counter to everything we're taught from day one, you could try answering all your questions and concerns with "It's God's will."

See how it goes.

559 posted on 12/10/2003 10:51:30 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: xzins
It is possible to ask a holy, proper question before one is regenerated. This man, under conviction, asks "What must I do to be saved?" Since he is obviously not saved, and since salvation is at the same time as regeneration, then a man is able, under prevenient grace, to be sufficiently enlightened by the Holy Spirit to ask, "What must I do to be saved?"

It is possible for a Rich Young Ruler to ask, "Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" (Luke 18:18). Same basic Question; that does not make the question intrinsically "holy".

A question about salvation is not, in and of itself, "Holy". Only if one Believes is one made holy; and an unregenerate Man will never Believe -- because he is spriritually dead, and hates God.

Men must be regenerated in order to believe. Otherwise, their questions about salvation are, like that of the Rich Young Ruler, just questions -- they will not Believe the answers unless they are Regenerated to do so.

The Philippian Jailer was Regenerated to Believe.
The Rich Young Ruler was not.

'Nuff Said.

570 posted on 12/11/2003 12:25:59 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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