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To: xzins
4. It is possible to ask a holy, proper question before one is regenerated. This man, under conviction, asks "What must I do to be saved?" Since he is obviously not saved, and since salvation is at the same time as regeneration, then a man is able, under prevenient grace, to be sufficiently enlightened by the Holy Spirit to ask, "What must I do to be saved?"

OK. Given this point, I have to turn to the rich young ruler. He asked a similar such question, but when presented with the answer rejected it. There is still the question of why the rich young ruler rejected it and the jailer accepted it.

I think regeneration has less to do with the asking of the question and more to do with the response to the answer received.

554 posted on 12/10/2003 6:25:37 AM PST by Frumanchu (mene mene tekel upharsin)
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To: Frumanchu
Thanks.

We'll have to compare/contrast the rich young ruler some day with the Philippian jailer.

Another discussion I'd like to have is in regard to those baptized by Jesus' disciples in John 3, I believe.

After the resurrection John Baptist's followers needed rebaptizing. Did the Apostles'?

I have no opinion on that. It's just a question of curiosity.
556 posted on 12/10/2003 6:49:29 AM PST by xzins (Proud to be Army!)
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To: Frumanchu; xzins
OK. Given this point, I have to turn to the rich young ruler. He asked a similar such question, but when presented with the answer rejected it. There is still the question of why the rich young ruler rejected it and the jailer accepted it.

Well there are a number of differences, none of which, I believe, confirm the Calvinist position. First of all the Jailer was in a position where he had nothing to lose by following Jesus. Indeed he was ready to commit suicide, so he was essentially at the end of his rope. Generally speaking that is a good place to be when confronted with the Gospel, as the consequences to following Jesus don't look so bad at that point.

The rich ruler though had everything to lose. Jesus sort of put the cart before the horse. He could have said merely, "Follow me and you shall have eternal life" but Jesus wanted to make sure that the ruler knew the consequences of following Jesus. It was essentially the same consequence that faced all of Jesus disciples at that time. They would all die penniless and suffer persecution. So Jesus told him that if he wanted eternal life he would have to sell all that he had and give it to the poor. He was faced with an eternal decision. A CHOICE if you will. Surrender all, including his riches, or die in your sins. He chose to die in his sins rather than suffer the consequences of his choice to follow Jesus.

As a general rule Jesus does not advise us as to the negative consequences of following him, but he does note that if you follow him there will be negative consequences. One has to be at a point where the idea of the negative consequences does not negate the desire for the eternal rewards before one can truly follow Jesus. The rich young ruler was not there.

Now it is interesting to note that Jesus, who is God, loved this man. Now a lot of Calvinists insist that God does not love those who are not his sheep. But here we have a man who first of all lies to Jesus face when he says he has kept all of the commandments since his youth and yet immediately it is noted that Jesus, beholding him in this sinful reprobate state "loved him." Clearly Jesus desired that this man have eternal life and thus it cannot be said that God loves only the elect, since this man clearly was not going to be one of the elect, but one of the lost. Jesus gave the man the instructions for him to have eternal life and despite the fact that Jesus loved him, this man went away rejecting him. He was not one of Christ's sheep, yet God still loved him and was desirous of his salvation (1 Tim 2:4).

So the question is, how can this man, whom Jesus loved, have rejected him? I thought Jesus only loved those whom he came to die for?

I think regeneration has less to do with the asking of the question and more to do with the response to the answer received.

I totally agree!!! If you give the correct response to the answer, then you will be saved; then you will be born again; then you will become a Child of God. Scripture makes that clear in dozens of places. So what does it mean? It simply means that regeneration is the consequence of the correct response to the answer, not the cause.

557 posted on 12/10/2003 8:08:13 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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