EMBRACING TRADITION: SMALL BUT GROWING NUMBER OF CATHOLICS RETURN TO RIGID RULES, LATIN MASSES

San Jose Mercury News ^ | Fri, Jul. 04, 2003 | Lisa Fernandez

[nickcarraway]

Cynthia Hummon, left, and Cassie Hamilton recite the stations of the cross during a retreat at St. Aloysius Retreat Center.

Tucked away in the hills of Los Gatos is a conservative Catholic retreat where much of modernity is rejected: Priests wear ankle-length black cassocks, children's play structures look like ancient castles, and Mass is celebrated in Latin.

[narses]

First you say:

The Church couldn't get the prayer for "perfidious Jews" out of the revised Good Friday liturgy fast enough, after Vatican II. It branded the entire Jewish people as somehow bound up in the heinous act of Christ's crucifixion.

Then you say:

"I, frankly, don't know who it referred to, so, I'm glad the prayer was left out of the Novus Ordo Good Friday liturgy."

Which is it Sink? An unkind poster might question the mental instability inherent in trying to maintain two such opposing thoughts at the same approximate time. Can you explain your contradictory words? Is the Tridentine Rite RACIST?

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

Granted, O'Reilly has his own agenda.

[narses]

First you say:

The Church couldn't get the prayer for "perfidious Jews" out of the revised Good Friday liturgy fast enough, after Vatican II. It branded the entire Jewish people as somehow bound up in the heinous act of Christ's crucifixion.

Then you say:

"I, frankly, don't know who it referred to, so, I'm glad the prayer was left out of the Novus Ordo Good Friday liturgy."

Which is it Sink? An unkind poster might question the mental instability inherent in trying to maintain two such opposing thoughts at the same approximate time. Can you explain your contradictory words? Is the Tridentine Rite RACIST?

[Maximilian]

Actually, the only truly "progressive" thing the Latin Mass folks could do is dump their obsession with 1950s clothing and head-coverings for women.

These are both symbolic and substantively important. First is the issue of modest clothing. It has been clear ever since the sixties that clothing plays an essential part in the revolution against Christian culture. The immodest attire that is standard in our society today is a sure sign of advanced decadence. Traditional Catholics must make a stand against it. Men should wear shirts and ties to Mass, women should wear modest yet feminine clothes. This is not an ancillary issue, but a central one.

The head covering is likewise a significant symbol. The essence of the modern revolt is the refusal to serve, the refusal to be submissive, first to God, and then to those in the natural order. When women revolt, they destroy the essential structure of the family and society, and set the tone for the next generation. One would be a hypocrite to choose the Latin Mass for some aesthetic reasons, but to refuse the "humble contrite heart" that God is really looking for.

[narses]

As does God. Since His is the Salvation of souls, I'll stay on His side.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

Valid point.

[narses]

Well said. The denutting of the Modern male is almost complete. The raising up of a Harlot on the Altar, as was done at Notre Dame 200 years ago, is all but complete.

[Desdemona]

You've made some great points.

I will argue that a good chunck of modernism is fueled somewhat by a more for less mentality - how can we do and have more with less effort (maybe the assembly line theory?). It's a carry over from the convenience of modern life. People don't want to feel bad, so they avoid depressing topics and thoughts (I'm guilty of this in the way of literature). It's all about wants and making more leisure time. It seems like maturity stopped at the "you're not going to make me do something I don't want to" stage of being a three year old.

And people wonder why I don't have a food processor.

[narses]

"Non Serviam" IS the Modernist Motto. They dress it up, but it has been their's since the First Rebellion, even before Adam and Eve.

[pascendi]

My point was pretty clear. What's yours?

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

I will argue that a good chunck of modernism is fueled somewhat by a more for less mentality - how can we do and have more with less effort (maybe the assembly line theory?). It's a carry over from the convenience of modern life. People don't want to feel bad, so they avoid depressing topics and thoughts...

Absolutely. In Jesuit school we called this "Father Feel-Good." The type of suburban culture with its mild New Agey hedonism that has evolved from the American bourgeois/postmodern experience tries to minimalize anything dark or tragic in human nature. There's a vague progress mythology, the idea that things will always improve and get better and better. Liberal Catholics have pandered and catered to this, as part and parcel of the unfortunate social evolution of the Catholic community. Look, I mean there are plenty of wonderful, holy Catholics. There are also the Kennedy style "Catholic Lite" liberals who are always chasing after a sun tan and pursue essentially a shallow, completely non-intellectual vacation resort lifestyle, from Boston to Palm Beach you find these phonies and not infrequently on some lay boards. Clergymen, who occasionally are from more modest backgrounds, have pandered and catered to this shallowness for quite a while. Catholicism becomes so easy, so much a part of a convenience lifestyle, it's even fun to join the bishop and his pals for a nice cruise of the Mediterranean. These are very shallow people. When they manage to attain church offices, watch the money.

[sinkspur]

My point was pretty clear.

As was mine.

[ultima ratio]

There is no such thing as a schismatic Mass--unless you mean the Novus Ordo, in which case you would have a point.
Has it ever occurred to you that people attend SSPX Masses primarily to worship God in an authentically Catholic way?

[sinkspur]

There is no such thing as a schismatic Mass--unless you mean the Novus Ordo, in which case you would have a point.

Here ya go, HMBA. In #132, I pledge not to use the word "schismatic", ever again, in referring to the ultra-trads, and see what happens? I get it thrown in my face by the Tradmaster himself.

How can we ever have peace and understanding around this place if down is up and up is down?

Now the Novus Ordo is schismatic!

My head, she is spinning, round and round!

[ultima ratio]

"You've said, countless times, that the Novus Ordo is a 'Protestant liturgy.' If you insist on saying you didn't, I'll dig it up. You say it on every single thread, over and over, so a quote won't be hard to find."

Once again you get it wrong. I focused on the claim you make that I have said the N.O. is heretical--not that it is Protestant. Now you make a big deal of the latter--which I've never denied--it IS Protestant theologically, reflecting a totally new unCatholic theology of sin and redemption--though it retains a true act of Consecration and so is just barely valid. In fact, it is a hybrid liturgy and as such is harmful to the faith. I've never ever denied this. I only deny that I've ever said it was actually heretical--which is a very technical term.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

I guess I am in the middle here. I like Latin and many aspects of traditional Catholic devotions, sacred art, and sacred music, yet, I am a product of Vatican II Catholicism and I don't reject all aspects of the more open and free discussions of certain issues. I would not wish "clericalism" of silencing laymen in any form. I think a lot of these things are stylistic and aesthetic or cultural preferences. Some, granted, touch on doctrine and understandings of the Eucharist and the priesthood, etc.

I would (prayerfully) suggest a truce and friendly discussions of how to structure debate for the good of the Christian cause. We're all brothers and sisters in Christ here, regardless of where thinking and reading have taken us theologically, liturgically, and spiritually.

Who likes Chesterton as a writer, btw? Waugh? Walker Percy? There must be some trads who are fans of Belloc here?

[pascendi]

No, your point wasn't clear. Say it outright so I can do it in.

[fatima]

Our priests are not lazy.

[sinkspur]

I would (prayerfully) suggest a truce and friendly discussions of how to structure debate for the good of the Christian cause. We're all brothers and sisters in Christ here, regardless of where thinking and reading have taken us theologically, liturgically, and spiritually.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to put you in the middle of one of the many little dust-ups I seem to have with UR, whom I admire from a distance, as one admires the power and august dignity of a brahma bull.

We are brothers in Christ, aren't we? Let not "schismatic" or "the Protestant Novus Ordo goers" ever pass our lips again!

In fact, if they do, let him who utters such be anathema!

[sinkspur]

though it retains a true act of Consecration and so is just barely valid.

Well, I guess this means I'll have to crawl on my hands and knees to get to heaven, while I watch you do a Straussian waltz up to the pearly gates!

Darn.