Pope Again Reaches Out to Orthodox Church

Herald Tribune ^ | June 30, 2003

[malakhi]

And I would not trust anything the Jews say when whining about the Catholic Church.

Thank you for this remarkable insight into your thinking. This has been a most enlightening thread.

[FormerLib]

Here's an example.

[FormerLib]

We should thank him for his honesty.

But mostly, I'd be appreciative of his just leaving me alone. I've had quite enough of his threads dripping hatred for the Orthodox Church and its followers.

[malakhi]

I made the assertion publicly, and I may as well try to explain where I'm coming from on this publicly.

Please ping me when you post something.

[St.Chuck]

Interesting read. Thanks.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

So how did you come to the Orthodox church? You became irreligious after high school, and then acquired a thirst for God. Orthodox converts aren't very common, well, to me anyway. Lots of cradle catholics become protestants, or apostasize before rediscovering Catholicism, but converting to orthodoxy is kinda rare. What led you East?

Actually, without knowing MarMema's personal story, I would advise you to consider the case of the Eastern Orthodox Convert Franky Schaeffer.

Familiar Name? Well, it should be. Franky is the eldest son of FRANCIS SCHAEFFER, the greatest Protestant Theologian of the Twentieth Century.

Francis Schaeffer himself was, of course, the apprentice-student of "Dr. Fundamentalist", J. Gresham Machen -- the founder of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (after he was excommunicated by the Presbyterian Liberals for being too Libertarian in his politics, and too Genesis-Creationist in his theology).

For better or worse, there is a considerable record of "Western Protestants" who have "travelled East unto Orthodoxy". While lesser in terms of absolute numbers than Protestant Converts to Romanism, in terms of percentage ratios (given the fact that Orthodox Presence in the West is quite small), the Protestant conversion to Orthodoxy is far greater than conversion to "Rome Sweet Home".

It's sorta like Prince Vladimir's conversion to Orthodoxy:

"We went unto the Worship of the Moslems, and found much Devotion, but we beheld no Joy. And thence we went unto the Worship of the Romans, and we found much Philosophy, and Ceremony, but we beheld no Glory. And thence we went unto the Greeks... and we knew not, whether we were in Heaven or on Earth".

Offering only my own two personal anecdotes...

• My own eldest brother (an American-French dual-citizen who participates in the Roman Mass except when the Eastern Orthodox circuit-priest is in town) has declared of my newborn nephew, "My Son shall be raised Eastern Orthodox!"
• And the very fellow who introduced me to Calvinism, my beloved Teen Pastor of my younger years, is today a Communicant Member of the Antiochan Orthodox patriarchate in America.

Sadly for us Presbyterians, it's probably our fault most of all. I say without Vanity (well, perhaps some vanity, but I also speak the Truth) that we train the best Minds in Protestantism. We know Aquinas far better than the average Roman Catholic; and when the average Eastern Orthodox cannot find Dr. Kalomiros famous address "The River of Fire", we not only explain the particulars, we graciously provide him with the URL in question (I have actually had to do this on behalf of Eastern Orthodox who needed to cite Kalomiros, and did not know where to find him on the Web).

We train the finest Minds in Protestantism, and then, upon their graduation, we present them with... A Presbyterian Church USA which actually can't decide whether or not to ordain Sodomites to the Presbytery. (Agghh!! Gahhh!!!)

Well, Judgment comes first upon the House of the Lord. And so they journey to Rome. Or (what is actually more statistically likely), they journey East unto Byzantium.

As a result, we find that the Finest Lay Apologists amongst both Eastern Orthodoxy (Franky Schaeffer most famously, but many more besides) and the Finest Lay Apologists amongst Roman Catholicism (Gerry Matatics, Scott and Kimberly Hahn, Robert Sungenis, Patrick Madrid, Paul Thigpen, James Akin... all of them!! EVERY SINGLE ONE!!)... are EX-PRESBYTERIANS. Every one, to a man.

It's a crying shame for Presbyterianism, because we need them here, and we need them now. If the blood spent on the battlefield counts for anything, approximately 60 to 90% of the American blood shed to establish American Independence in 1776 to 1783 was Presbyterian blood, and if America needed us ever, she needs us now.

But at the same time, I can understand why they left. It ain't much fun to fight for a lost cause when the Theological Liberals subordinated the American Presbyterian Church to Apostasy at least 50 years ago.

• Those who found their passion in Ecclesiology and Structure, have departed and gone unto Rome.
• Those who found their passion in Liturgy and Worship, have departed and gone unto Byzantium.
• And those of us who are still in love with Theology and Precise Logic (an actual Renaissance term for Calvinists: "Precisians") -- well, we're still Orthodox Presbyterians. "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

That's us. So it has ever been, so it ever shall be.

So it goes.

best, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

A lot of it has to do with Serbs living in the United States. The fact that very few of our Churches are destroyed here (only 3 were desecrated during the Clinton years).

Look, it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Dig it:

"Folks, it's cool!! We understand!! It's not that bad!! You only Carpet-Bombed our nation and incinerated a few of our churches!! In fact, y'all only desecrated three of our Churches here in the US of A!!

Yeah, we know you have that "First Amendment" Thing... but we're Orthodox. Frankly, we're accustomed to being butchered for no good reason. Happens all the time.

America kills us LESS!! (sometimes). That's why we Love you!! We love, and love, and love you -- Unconditionally!!"

As I said, the Serbs love America. Like a freakin' genetic predisposition. It's simply a Fact.

I don't have a drop of Serbian Blood, and I am as Americanist as the day is long. Nonetheless, I don't understand it...

It's just the way it is.

Some things just are.

[MarMema]

What led you East? :o)

1.A bunch of trips to Russia, during which on several of them we stayed in homes of Orthodox Christians.

2.Simultaneous experiences at home during which people kept telling us about the Orthodox church, which we had never heard about before.

3.A personal experience with an overwhelming feeling of peace quite out of the blue while praying at Saint Basil's in Moscow.

4. A visit to the Orthodox liturgy.

[George W. Bush]

The Ustashe are rising again. They hold fascist rallies, they celebrate the Ustashe genocide of WW II, they tear down the monuments to the Serbian freedom-fighters. I think the stage is set for a repeat of the massacres during WW II. Rome is playing her same treacherous role.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Sorry! Someone else pinged him to a discussion and I copied the list without realzing he was in it.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

They will always reamain. Our doctrine does not change.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The Latins have murdered more people in the name of religon than can ever be atoned for.

Baloney. Try reading about the Inquisition and Wars of Religion from impartial historians, rather than inflamed Protestants.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

This is why he won't apologize to the Serbian Orthodox for Rome's murder of two million Serbs under an Ustashe Catholic genocide so brutal that even the Nazis were appalled by them.

I really wasn't interested in going into the Ustashe at this time, but why don't we start off by asking that you reliably document the number of victims you claim here (2,000,000!) and Rome's "complicity" in their murder. I won't accept Edumund Black and the like as worthwile historians in defense of your position either. It would be interesting to see if you can quote any actual source documents abotu what you wish to believe here, as opposed to historians quoting each other.

Except for making a saint of a viciously insane Ustashe killer at just the right time to encourage the resurgence of the Ustashe under Rome's banner.

Can you name the people killed by Archbishop Stepanic?

A substantial number of those burned were Jews who had been forcibly converted to Romanism (if not killed outright).

Considering the reliability of the other sources you've used, I'm sure you'll forgive me for saying "BS!" There is no purpose in discussing historty with people who consider Lorraine Boettner and the like truthful.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Was the Cathlic Church responsible for Kristallnacht?????

Come on!

If the Catholic Chruch was so "mean" to the Jews, why did Rabbi Zolli convert after WWII?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Do you not accept the death penalty? How is old sparky different from the stake?

[MarMema]

I'm not sure I can accept the death penalty.
I put an animal down earlier this year who was suffering and had not much chance of making it back to a normal life. I struggled for some time afterward with a feeling of having taken matters into my own hands when I should have left them to God to decide.

I had the same feelings about the surgery and deaths of those Siamese twins recently. I think what God ordains is perhaps more important than what man thinks should be done.

[MarMema]

Regarding the new rise of the Utashe -

commemoration

"At the same time, neo-Ustashe noise is becoming louder, almost totally drowning few critical voices. In seven years, starting with the rather shy relativization of Ustashe crimes, we've arrived bit by bit, to the first eulogy of a criminal and celebration of crime, from a church altar in the center of Zagreb and the Republic of Croatia. Father Lasic's sermon, officially supported by several parties from the extreme right, received far more publicity than both condemnations of the event by his superiors (which were published on page 15 in Glas Koncila on January 12, 1997). In spite of everything, a great majority of the Croatian public has been silent during the last seven years. What is the meaning of this new "Croatian silence" in which, each one in its own way, all leading opposition parties and all state, cultural and artistic Croatian institutions have participated?"

Fascists reborn

[George W. Bush]

I really wasn't interested in going into the Ustashe at this time, but why don't we start off by asking that you reliably document the number of victims you claim here (2,000,000!) and Rome's "complicity" in their murder.

I'm using the 2 million figure from the war crimes report filed by the Serbs to the United Nations after the war, a very extensive document.

The mobs were lead by Roman priests in the forcible conversions, the church burnings (with congregants locked inside), the mass hangings and other atrocities. The commandant of the largest concentration camp was a Roman priest. There are many other bits of evidence, from the nuns marching with the SS to the chapel which glorifies the Ustashe genocide of the Serbs.

Can you name the people killed by Archbishop Stepanic?

Right after you name the people killed by Adolf Hitler personally.

There is no purpose in discussing historty with people who consider Lorraine Boettner and the like truthful.

I'm unaware of Boettner's position, if any, on the Ustashe genocide of Serb Orthodox. I don't have much use for Boettner.

You can try to disguise Rome's hand in the massacre of the Serbs but they are becoming more exposed. Their horrible acts can no longer be hidden or ignored.

[MarMema]

"Feral Tribune" an opposition newspaper published in Split (Croatia) revealed in its latest edition that in a Franciscan Church in Zagreb mass has been served for one of the biggest war criminals in World War II - Ante Pavelic. The newspaper stresses that "...those that asked for the requiem to Ante Pavelic, the chief engineer of the genocide against the Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies in NDH, were very much involved in promoting the rehabilitation of NDH and the Ustashi movement." Along with the relatives of the Ustashi Fuhrer, the service was attended by members of the Croatian Liberation Movement - the organization founded by Pavelic. The organization - now headed by Pavelic's son-in-law has been officially registered in Croatia and it took part in the recent elections. (Vecernje novosti, January 9, 1996)

Serbia today

I am planning to do as much research today online as time permits because I seem to recall that the most recent beatification or honor ceremony from the pope in Croatia was for a man who founded a group that eventually became very pro-nazi.

[TexConfederate1861]

LOL...Steve...I know we disagree some...but this was priceless....hehehe!