Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ460.HTM ^ | Dave Armstrong compiles quotes from Martin Luther, John Calvin, et al.,

[katnip]

Ok Marmema, so what did you do to start this newbies rant about Orthodox Christians besides agree with him ?

To: Patrick Madrid

historic Christian teaching on this issue was that Mary remained a perpetual virgin

And that would, indeed, be fact.

15 posted on 06/24/2003 8:04 PM PDT by MarMema [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

Sorry Patty, there's only a handful of Orthodox Christians that I know of on this forum. Their job is not to sit around just waiting for your next post so they can respond to it, despite how important you think you are (Mr. been here all of 2 weeks).

[american colleen]

You could stay on topic, you know. As far as the Blessed Virgin Mary, there is virtually no difference in what either of our Churches teach.

In a post you made yesterday you used some link that I clicked on and found that some of the Orthodox Patriarch's actually request meetings with the popes. In fact, I was surprised that one of the Orthodox clergy on that site had a name beginning with "Pope"...

Anyway, you yourself (and the person you quoted in your above post) may be personally opposed to "Ut unum sint" but not all Orthodox feel the same way you do.

[american colleen]

Mr. been here all of 2 weeks

Is there a time qualifier to be met in order to post on FR? Everyone is new at some point.

[katnip]

Well yeah, everyone's new at some time, but it takes a bit more than 2 weeks posting to be taken seriously or for people to start looking for your posts.

I find it funny that he seemed to think everyone's just sitting around waiting to respond to his posts or pat him on the back whenever his fingers type a sentence.

2 weeks new seems a little young to be making the demands he makes in his post 175.

[Patrick Madrid]

"In other words, we honor her for giving birth to Christ but we stop short of making her into a fourth member of the Holy Trinity.

This is excellent news. I'm happy to know that you don't make the mistake of trying to make Mary the "fourth member" of the Holy Trinity.

[MarMema]

He sees himself as a great theologian, not entirely his fault perhaps. I don't think they teach their members about prelest.

[Patrick Madrid]

Sorry, but your attempt to evade or downplay the fact that the Orthodox Churches affirm the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity, not as insiginificant and in *exactly* the same way the Catholic Church does, won't wash. The facts are the facts. If you want to get angry with me for showing the evidence from bona fide Orthodox sources, that's okay. It doesn't bother me, and I don't return your anger with anger. I pray that God will bless you.

[american colleen]

Ya know, I've read here that people are afraid or too timid to post because they are afraid everyone is going to jump all over them. I thank God that people were so patient with me when I was new on FR.

This is post 175:
Apropos of our conversation dealing with the Orthodox Churches' teaching on Mary's perpetual virginity, have you noticed how quiet they've been about this? One would think that, given the historic Orthodox affirmation of this doctrine, some of the more, shall we say, "persistent" and "vocal" Orthodox folk on this message board, who always show such alacrity in posting their comments when the Catholic Church is the issue, would have added their voices to defend Holy Tradition, now that Orthodoxy has recently entered the picture in your and my comments. Fascinating.

And I don't see any "demands" at all.

When I joined FR, I joined on the "political" side. I never posted to the religious threads but saw them as they at that time, were mixed in with politics. The threads scared me because of all the fighting "in the name of God." The first night I posted something to do with religion was in defense of the Blessed Virgin Mary (who was being excoriated by some Protestants) and the poster who was with me who had also jumped in that night for the first time was Wordsmith - who is a wonderful Orthodox man. We became friends and united because of our love of the Theotokos. We civilly exchanged posts "off" line, talked about Catholicism and Orthodoxy and he invited me to attend an Orthodox Mass with him. He recommended several books to me which I purchased and have read.

And ya know, Patrick Madrid has run a forum similar to FR for a long time and he's probably lurked on FR for a long time before something interested him enough that he decided to join - like most of us. He has published a religious magazine for some years and he is the author of many books. Why would he come to FR in a timid manner? I've found his posts to be polite, to the point and he has not slandered or personally insulted anyone.

[katnip]

I am quite fond of and read many Catholics posts on this site. You know I was raised RC and have converted to Orthodoxy. I seem to still be on many Catholic ping lists (well, maybe not after today).

This is the first thread I've read Pat's posts. I'm not seeing the same polite manner you speak of from the get-go here.

Sorry I can't read post 175 as anything more than snide.

[Patrick Madrid]

My, my. You have pretty thin skin, don't you? You've worked yourself into quite a lather over this. Which makes wonder why someone who wants so badly to put me in my place and let me know that my unimportant newbie comments don't have people at the edge of their seats, waiting to respond (geesh, as if), would so antsy to get in there with your own put-downs. Well, you zinged me good, brotha. You got your jab in. Do you feel better now?

And by the way, who really cares if I'm new here? How does that matter, one way or the other? Or perhaps you've established some magical time period after which people's opinions begin to matter.

[katnip]

You got your jab in. Do you feel better now?

Yes, much thank you.

[american colleen]

I'm not seeing the same polite manner you speak of from the get-go here.

Well, ya gotta join and post and read stuff on FR with charity in your heart, first of all. Type can't show a smile or a laugh or inflections. I like to give everybody the benefit of the doubt and I hope people do the same when they read what I write.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Give em hell katnip! :)

Your right he's full of himself.

BigMack

[ThomasMore]

Let's take it Back to the Bible. Maybe you don't like "Sola Scriptura" -- neither do I. It is often misunderstood. Let us instead consider the Scriptures to be THE FIRST-CENTURY MAGISTERIUM

First thing you need to do then, OP, is infallibly declare the 27 NT books as the inerrant word of God. You were neither there nor privy to their writing nor their preservation. Why should I believe you that the 27 are the inspired word of God? Why should I trust you over the Church that does have that authority? Or at least they have better evidence of such authority.

I accept the RCC teaching on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary the Mother of God for the same reason I accept their declaration that the 27 are the inerrant word of God; no more no less!

[AlguyA]

"So don't think that finding one trivial thing in which the Orthodox church agrees with the RC church is going to work as a divisional tactic."

Wow! I never thought I'd see the day where an Orthodox described Theotokos as a trivial thing. Is this a common view in your church? I've read other Orthodox, here at FR, who had led me to believe your church held some devotion to Our Lady.

[american colleen]

I mean no offense, Big Mack, but it would be nice to see you address the topics on threads in your own words (i.e. no cutting and pasting) instead of taking potshots at people or just posting some silly graphics.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

What for? its all been said a million times, pot shots are all thats left. :)

Besides I'm working on my grand opus!

BigMack

[MarMema]

Wow! I never thought I'd see the day where an Orthodox described Theotokos as a trivial thing

That is what she said, isn't it? What did I say, though? You *might* want to try for some accuracy with this.

[drstevej]

Besides I'm working on my grand opus! ~ BigMack

What, a Spam Happy Meal?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Buzz off you snake.

BigMack