Posted on 06/23/2003 2:36:07 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
I'm not claiming that Scripture proves that Mary did have subsequent marital relations, either; while it does refer to "brothers" for Jesus, it seems to do so in a context that admits to (but does not require) the usage of the term to refer to people to whom you are very close, but not related to in blood (such as my fraternity brothers). So, if you want to believe that she stayed a virgin all her life, go ahead. But to insist on it as a matter of doctrine is farther than I think is justified.
They didn't have this baby and then resume their normal lives, him carpenting and her spitting out babies.
Once Herod was dead, there was nothing preventing such a life.
In fact, once Herod was dead, the family moved back to Nazareth and, per the later testimony of their neighbors (when they were confronted with JESUS' ministry), their life there did not seem to be all that out of the ordinary.Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
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Mark 6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
Correct. And that cuts either way. So some of us listen to the handed-down testimony from the early Church. Others presume what is "reasonable" given their experience with life.
while it does refer to "brothers" for Jesus, it seems to do so in a context that admits to (but does not require) the usage of the term to refer to people to whom you are very close, but not related to in blood (such as my fraternity brothers).
Not exactly. The claim is that the word is broader than our modern American definition. "Brothers and sisters" are simply relations, or kin. Family, but not necessarily from the same uterus as yourself.
SD
A crown with 12 stars you would deny her?
Of course not.
I am, simply, saying that, scripturally, the correspondence (12 stars - 12 tribes) dovetails best with Israel.
I thought we just talked about the flight to Egypt? Didn't the dragon try to persue the woman and kill her offspring?
Didn't Herod try to find the offspring and kill it?
As is noted in a related post (# 322), the Herodian persecution of the family ended with the death of Herod, ... rather early in JESUS' life.
Once again, the persistent persecution of the woman (who did not have her child with her by the way ... the child was snatched up to heaven by God) ...
... which we find described, ... particularly, in verses 15 and 16 of Revelation 12, ...
... corresponds best with Israel, ... who, though JESUS has ascended, ... still face an otherwise irrational persecution even to this day.
Also, one could pesher that many today still persecute the woman, Mary, by various means.
Persecuted in heaven ... how would that be ?
She is Israel. At least she is the crowning symbol of Israel, its peak acheivement.
As is noted in a related post (# 322), the Herodian persecution of the family ended with the death of Herod, ... rather early in JESUS' life.
Yes, and you had a good point there. Here, I am merely showing how the imagery fits into Mary's life.
Persecuted in heaven ... how would that be ?
Her person, her being, her life, her role. All are routinely mocked by those claiming to love her Son. It is the creulest form of persecution, this irrational belief that they can bring people to her Son by destroying the image of the mother. That attacking people's beliefs in what the Son has done for the mother, what he promises to do for us as well, is a way to bring us to Him.
SD
... corresponds best with Israel, ... who, though JESUS has ascended, ... still face an otherwise irrational persecution even to this day.
I think you will find that Mary, too, had her child taken way from her, first into death and then into Heaven.
SD
Again; no proof that they did, no proof that they didn't. We are left to reason and tradition, and end up weighing those against each other. I go one way, others go the other. If you wish to accept this as an article of faith, I have no argument. If you wish to accept this as doctrine that's proven by Scripture, then I do argue.
Fair enough. Thank you for the fine, civil conversation. It's nice to see that's still possible once in a while around here. :-)
SD
I think you will find that Mary, too, had her child taken way from her, first into death and then into Heaven.
Still, ... the sequence of the Revelation 12 events (i.e. birth, child goes to heaven, ... then singular persecution) does not quite fit Mary's experience.
Or - in more modern language:
Luke 1:34 (RSV)
And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"
Does "I have . . ." mean "I will never have . . ."? Did Mary ever have a husband?
I agree. :-)
SD
I agree. :-)
King Lear! King Lear!
Neither SD or OR will ever fit that category. We may not know what to say but we'll say something. :-)
(oops, wrong Shakespeare king.)
SD
It says no such thing. She was saved before the fact, not after. She has as much need for a Savior as any other human.
Please, disbelieve in our teachings if you will, but know what they are before you reject them.
SD
OTOH, all of the aspects of the sign/wonder correlate well with Israel.
Aspects of the sign/wonder which argue persuasively for the interpretation of the sign as Israel ... The woman's crown of twelve stars (per the twelve tribes of Israel) vs. 1
Rather than the Twelve Tribes, a Christian would see the Twelve Apostles. Mary being their Queen, since Jesus was their King, and she His mother. "All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren." (Acts 1.14).
The dragon's persecution and homicidal pursuit of the woman (anti-semitism) vss. 13, 15
Anti-semitism? Are you serious? A song is breaking out ... my Bologna has a first name, its J-U-D-A-I-S-M ...
"And thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Revelation 2.9)
Jesus in the Gospels, too, solemnly informs us that the Jews are children of the Devil, because they reject Him, and thus reject God the Father. "You are of your father the devil: and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning: and he stood not in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof." (John 8.44)
Why would you claim Satan would pursue those who are already his, who form "the Synagogue of Satan"? Are you sure you are really a Christian?
"And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelations 12.17). Compare to "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." (Genesis 3.15).
Can't you see the parallel here?
The entire passage is an allegory on the Nativity, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension of Christ, as well as the aftermath, the persecution of the Church and the martyrdom of the faithful. Who gave birth to Christ? Blessed Mary, not Israel.
Where are these "Missionary/Evangelist teams" in a Scripture that talks only of Bishops, Presbyters (Priests - look up the derivation), and Deacons?
And have you forgotten the Old Testament? "Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures." (Luke 24.45). Surely, the Apostles their fellow members of the hierarchy would have used the widespread availability of the Septuagint to explain the faith to them as well? How could this not be a comprehensive picture of Christ? Are you claiming their preaching was lacking?
Israel is the Church, the congregation of the faithful of the Hebrews, and the converts of the Gentiles. See Romans 11, John 8, etc. You blaspheme by giving that term to the modern Jews, who are wholly underserving of it (see Revelations 2.9)
Persecuted in heaven ... how would that be ?
By sacrilegious Protestants such as yourself who deny her perogatives and holiness and call her place in the economy of salvation into question and deny the usefulness of having recourse to her prayers. That's how Blessed Mary is persecuted in heaven.
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