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To: Noachian
All I really want to know is what was around before that alleged singularity went bang.

Ah. That's a different question.

You haven't answered that question nor has anyone else,

Again, it doesn't appear that you've tried hard to get an answer. In the standard (Friedmann-Robertson-Walker) Big Bang cosmology, the concept "before the Big Bang" is a null concept. The idea is based upon a wrong assumption about the nature of time. Here is a boilerplate response I've posted numerous times to FR:

The question, "what happened before Archduke Ferdinand was shot" is a well-formed question, as is, "what is south of Topeka, Kansas." The question, "what happened before the big bang" is an ill-formed question, as is, "what lies south of the south pole."

Imagine you are travelling south, down to the south pole. As you get closer to the pole, the east-west direction does a curious thing: it curls back upon itself in an ever-tightening circle, disappearing completely as you reach the point of the pole itself. At that place, the ground is as smoothly two-dimensional as anywhere else on Earth, but every possible direction points north, even directions that lie at right angles to each other.

Imagine that you can go backwards in time, back to the big bang. As you get closer to the big bang, space does a curious thing: the spatial dimensions curl back upon themselves in an ever-tightening circle, disappearing completely as you reach the singularity itself. At that event, spacetime is as smoothly four-dimensional as at any other event in history, but every possible direction points towards the future, even directions that lie at right angles to each other.

I stress that what I have laid before you is not an analogy, but two separate examples of the same phenomenon.

There may exist events that are external to the space and time dimensions of our universe, but none of them can be said to come before or after any events of our universe; they cannot be included in any causal framework such as history. Time itself is strictly internal to our universe. If we want to use words like "cause" and "before", we must needs keep our game pieces on the board.

Philosophically, time exists in the universe; the universe does not exist in time. Note that this doesn't necesarily mean that the Big Bang doesn't have a cause, just that it (philosophically) doesn't need a cause, and any such cause could not be expressed as part of any timeline you could draw of events in our universe. Causality presupposes the existence of time.

(Furthermore, there are demonstrably uncaused events that occur in our universe. Not even timed events absolutely require a cause.)

92 posted on 06/23/2003 5:02:23 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: Physicist; Noachian
An amateur theologian I know told me "God couldn't have created the Universe, he didn't have time."
321 posted on 06/28/2003 7:29:08 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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