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Heresy in Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia?
Vatican Website ^ | 4/17/2003 | Pope John Paul II

Posted on 06/04/2003 10:52:42 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker

Deinde calicem in manus vini sustulit eisque dixit: "Accipite et bibite omnes: hic calix novum aeternumque testamentum est in sanguine meo, qui pro vobis funditur et pro omnibus in remissionem peccatorum" (cfr Mc 14, 24; Lc 22, 20; 1 Cor 11, 25).


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: eucharist; heresy; pope; promultis
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I find the above quote from the Latin text extremely disturbing, since it is a blatant misquotation of the Bible in support of what can only be termed heresy. It appears that this misstatement is as bad as Pope Honorius' infamous ambiguity.

In the New Vulgate, we read:

Mattheaum 26.27-28 "Et accipiens calicem, gratias egit et dedit illis dicens: 'Bibite ex hoc omnes: hic est enim sanguis meus novi testamenti, qui pro multis effunditur in remissionem peccatorum.'"

Marcum 14.24 "Et ait illis: 'Hic est sanguis meus novi testamenti, qui pro multis effunditur.'"

The Catechism of Trent explains the use of "pro multis" instead of "pro omnibus" in its section on the Eucharist:

The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God. They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not unto all, but to many of the human race. When therefore ('our Lord) said: For you, He meant either those who were present, or those chosen from among the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom He was speaking. When He added, And for many, He wished to be understood to mean the remainder of the elect from among the Jews or Gentiles.

With reason, therefore, were the words for all not used, as in this place the fruits of the Passion are alone spoken of, and to the elect only did His Passion bring the fruit of salvation. And this is the purport of the Apostle when he says: Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; and also of the words of our Lord in John: I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me, because they are thine.


1 posted on 06/04/2003 10:52:42 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Loyalist
Would you mind pinging the orcs to kick this one around a bit?
2 posted on 06/04/2003 10:53:12 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Alberta's Child; Aloysius; AniGrrl; Antoninus; Bellarmine; BlackElk; Dajjal; Domestic Church; ...
PING
3 posted on 06/04/2003 11:00:21 AM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; ultima ratio; Land of the Irish; Aloysius; Salvation; Desdemona; Polycarp; ..
Would you mind explaining this those who don't understand Latin that well?

Pinging some of the Catholic FReepers.

4 posted on 06/04/2003 11:03:26 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: Pyro7480
The explanation is in the quote from the Tridentine Catechism at the bottom of my post. "Pro multis" means "for many". "Pro omnbius" means "for all".

Pope John Paul II's Encyclical purposefully misquotes the Gospels in such a way as to make the formula for the consecration of the wine heretical. Even the Novus Ordo in Latin does not do this.

The heresy being stated is that Christ shed his blood for the remission of the sins of all men. This is called universalism - the belief that everyone will be saved. The correct doctrine is that Christ's sacrifice was made for all men, but is effective only for the elect. The final words ("for you and for many for the remission of sins") in the form of consecration for the wine is the determination of the predicate ("This is the chalice of my blood").

If this is changed to "for you and for all for the remission of sins" as is done in the English translation to the Novus Ordo, and as is done in this Encyclical, the statement is saying that Christ's sacrifice was effective "for all", so all men are saved. Hebrews says: "So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many." (9.28) and "For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (10.14) Saying "for all" implies a belief that "all mankind" is sanctified by the offering of Christ, and not merely the elect, or rather, tha the elect includes all mankind.

5 posted on 06/04/2003 11:22:13 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Aquinasfan
Any thoughts on this?
6 posted on 06/04/2003 11:24:33 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Pyro7480
Well I didn't do that well in Latin (I should have studied more, but I ended up with B's) but pro multis is 'for many' and pro omnibus is 'for all.' So the quotes are referring to Jesus's comments that his blood was shed for many, instead of for all.

I believe the arguments surrounding this difference in words relates to different concepts of salvation.

7 posted on 06/04/2003 11:27:19 AM PDT by FBDinNJ
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To: FBDinNJ
Oops, looks like Herman beat me to it! :-)
8 posted on 06/04/2003 11:28:10 AM PDT by FBDinNJ
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Saying "for all" implies a belief that "all mankind" is sanctified by the offering of Christ, and not merely the elect, or rather, tha the elect includes all mankind.

Christ did indeed die for all of mankind... unless you are a Calvinist and believe that He created some men to be consigned to hell. Many do not hear Him or listen to Him and therefore, not all are sanctified by His sacrifice.

This stuff is splitting hairs.

9 posted on 06/04/2003 11:54:20 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Wuz just thinking that Jesus Christ is often referred to as "the Saviour of Mankind."
10 posted on 06/04/2003 12:04:51 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
My old 8th grade teacher, Sr. Mary Davidica RSM, would not thought it splitting hairs at all.
11 posted on 06/04/2003 12:06:38 PM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
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To: Pyro7480
Helpful tools Here!
12 posted on 06/04/2003 12:21:15 PM PDT by Telit Likitis
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To: american colleen
Slam dunk! Good for you!

Jesus Christ is my Savior, your Savior and the Savior of each and every human being. He does not, however, interfere with the free will given to each of us as a divine gift. He leaves us free to choose hell and, unfortunately, many do.

13 posted on 06/04/2003 12:29:39 PM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: Telit Likitis
Wow! Thanks. I took one year of Latin in high school (I went to a Catholic high school) and I took a semester in college, which was basically a refresher for me.
14 posted on 06/04/2003 12:58:09 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: american colleen
This stuff is splitting hairs.

I disagree. This appears to be a deliberate mistranslation of the very words spoken by Christ (I believe it's deliberate because it hasn't been corrected after so many years). All of the principal modern English translations of the Bible translate Christ's words as "for many". Pay close attention at the next Palm Sunday Novus Ordo Mass you attend. The Gospel will likely conflict with the Consecration.

Which is correct?

15 posted on 06/04/2003 1:44:44 PM PDT by Aloysius
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
This is very disturbing that such an obvious mistake should creep into the encyclical. Trent and the tradition of the Church have the authority here and the Pope (or his advisers) must have slipped up by using "omnibus".

However, it does make me wonder which language the encyclical was written in originally - almost certainly it cannot have been the Latin as no Latin Bible or Missal that I know of uses "omnibus" rather than "multis".

It appears to me that the encyclical was written in a modern language which mistranslates the words of consecration as "for all" and this error has then been incorporated into the Latin translation of the encyclical.

I don't know if you or anyone out there might have a German translation of the Novus Ordo, but I think that it is only the English and German missals which mistranslate "multis" as "all".

I wonder if I smell a Rat(zinger) at work here?:

"Dann nahm er den Kelch mit Wein in seine Hände und sagte zu ihnen: »Nehmet und trinket alle daraus: Das ist der Kelch des neuen und ewigen Bundes, mein Blut, das für euch und für ALLE vergossen wird zur Vergebung der Sünden« (vgl. Mk 14, 24; Lk 22, 20; 1 Kor 11, 25)."
16 posted on 06/04/2003 2:51:21 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo
"I wonder if I smell a Rat(zinger) at work here?"

If I'm going to become a certified schismatic orc, I've to to get it straight: Is Ratzinger a good guy or a bad guy?

The other day some article was talking about him trying to increase the use of Latin.
17 posted on 06/04/2003 5:50:37 PM PDT by dsc
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To: american colleen
"This stuff is splitting hairs."

I think your take on the matter is sensible, but at the same time, perhaps there is a reason that Jesus said "multis" and not "omnibus."

Maybe, and I'm just speculating here, the use of "multis" keeps before us the thought that not everyone will accept salvation, while the use of "omnibus" might carry some risk of sliding into complacency.
18 posted on 06/04/2003 5:54:55 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc
Ratzinger has his good moments, but ultimately, he was a flaming liberal of the 1950's and 1960's who has not been able to put the nonesense behind him. Some schismatic orc opinions on this ...

See here.

And here.

19 posted on 06/04/2003 6:55:18 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: american colleen; dsc
Colleen, I don't dispute that Christ died for all. The porblem is saying that his blood was shed for the remission of the sins of all is the same as saying that all are saved. That's not true, because some are lost. Christ specifically said:

"This is the Chalice of my blood, the New and Eternal Testament, which shall be shed for you and for many, for the remission of sins."

Saying "many" here determines who the "blood" has effectual power to cause "the remission of sins" for. If you say all, you say all have their sins forgiven by it and are going to heaven.

The Church teaches us:

Canon 4. Likewise, concerning the redemption of the blood of Christ, because of the great error which has arisen from this cause, so that some, as their writings indicate, declare that it has been shed even for those impious ones who from the beginning of the world even up to the passion of our Lord, have died in their wickedness and have been punished by eternal damnation, contrary to the prophet: "O death, I will be Thy death, O hell, I will be thy bite." [Osee 13.14]; it seems right that we should simply and faithfully hold and teach according to the evangelical and apostolic truth, because we hold this price to have been paid for those concerning whom our Lord Himself says: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so it is necessary that the Son of man be lifted up, that all, who believe in Him, may not perish, but may have eternal life" [John 3.14 ff.], and the Apostle: "Christ," he said, "once has been offered to exhaust the sins of many" [Heb. 9.28]. (Council of Valence III, AD 855, Denzginer 323)

20 posted on 06/04/2003 7:20:57 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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