SALVATION ALTOGETHER BY GRACE

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/spurgeon/web/ss-0027.html ^ | July 29, 1866 | C. H. Spurgeon

[drstevej]

***do you really agree with the above-quoted portion of your quotation?***

As I understand the quote, yes. BTW, "I like And can it Be?" alot too.

***Do you think the traditional, hard-shell Calvinist (I know from your posts that you depart from Calvinist orthodoxy in some areas) would subscribe to the view that "...good tempers, good desires, good purposes and intentions, ... all these flow from the free grace of God ...?" ***

I'll let them answer for themselves. However, I'm sure you have a point of concern. What is it? Pull up a chair and tell me your troubles. Remember, I'm the soft-shell Calvinist (whatever that means).

[drstevej]

It has been 20 years since I read Bondage of the Will, so the content isn't exactly fresh in my mind.

Luther's bombastic style was not unlike his era (and he was a German as well). Many of the polemic tracts of the era are intensely blunt especially to modern ears schooled on tacftful tolerance. I remember one tract of the era entitled something like, "Seven Sharp Arrows pulled from the quiver of God's Word and fired straightway into the Hearts of the Godless Infidels Who Teach that...(here their views were summarized)." And this was just the title!

Luther could also be crude once describing papal bulls as the expelling of wind (the german is less subtle). I would attribute some to Luther's temperament, but he really was not out of step with his era.

As to your second question, Luther was concerned about the abuses he saw in the church and wanted to redress the wrongs. Initially he did not view these as coming from the top and felt reform could occur. In the course of the disputations that followed the 95 Theses he realized that the issues were deeply seated in the papacy. His tract "The Babylonian Captivity of the Church" is worth reading.

http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/luther/babylonian/babylonian.htm#1

Third, the issue of limited atonement and perseverance: [1]Neither Luther or Calvin to my knowledge deal directly with the issue of limited atonement - it became an issue later; [2] I believe the same is true of perseverance. In the Reformed tradition the issue of perseverance was questioned by Arminius and the Remonstrants (1600s) and even then they left it an open question. The issues that are central to Luther and Calvin are authority (scripture vs. tradition) and salvation (faith vs. works). I am more familiar with Reformed theology than Lutheran theology.

One book for your reading list. A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy which discussed the attributes of God. If you are interested in other suggestions freep me with the area of interest and I'll give some suggestions.

[Gamecock]

Afternoon doc. Thanks for the ping.

[CCWoody]

I am currently reading Martin Luther's The Bondage of the Will. ~ ponyespresso

I just finished reading it in preparation for the start of a Bible study in September on the Reformation. Did you notice this paragraph by Luther and the interesting question he asks?

1. What do we know but that God is immutable.
2. And, what do we all agree, but that there will be an everlasting place of torment.

When the Lord makes a promise, we ought to be out of doubt that He knows, and can and will perform what He promises; otherwise, we will be accounting Him neither true nor faithful, which is UNBELIEF, the height of irreverence, and a denial of the Most High Himself! And how can we be sure and certain, unless we know that certainly, infallibility, immutably, and necessarily, He knows, wills and will perform what He promises? We should be sure that God wills, and will execute His will, necessarily and immutably. Otherwise, where is the foundation of our assurance that what God wills for us will be executed necessarily and immutably? ~ Martin Luther

Yet, the Arminian will tell me that it is God's expressed will and desire to save all men everywhere without any exception.

My specific question is this: Seeing that the Arminian can only resolve the existence of souls in perdition with a change in God's will for these souls from one of a will to save to a will to damn forever and noting that this of necessity means that God's will is NOT immutable, then...

• what specifically is the foundation of their assurance that what God wills for us will be executed necessarily and immutably?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There you go using that God-given logic again.

If God desires that everyone be saved, why aren't they? If Christ died for all, why are some in hell? If man can refuse God's gift of saving grace, who is stronger, God or man?

He's either God, or He's us dressed up in a monkey suit.

[drstevej]

***He's either God, or He's us dressed up in a monkey suit.***

He has been know to dress up in a Gideon suit...

Judges 6:34 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon... [lit. clothed himself with Gideon].

[CCWoody]

There you go using that God-given logic again. ~ Dr. Eckleburg

Hey, I didn't think it up first. But, as I am wont to rob from Opie, so also I freely rob from anyone else who makes an excellent observation. Of course, we might just have to spank Opie if he gets puffed up that I named him with Luther. LOL!

And, I have been trying to figure out how an Arminian would answer this, but I have been unable to search it out. I have asked about a dozen of them and have yet to receive a single answer. I even gave it to my usher who will be teaching the class on the Reformation with me in September and all he said was "Word". Hmmmm!

If God desires that everyone be saved, why aren't they? If Christ died for all, why are some in hell? If man can refuse God's gift of saving grace, who is stronger, God or man? ~ Dr. Eckleburg

Of course, along these lines is the question: If the Lord is unwilling that any perish then why was He unwilling to perform miracles in the presence of some whom He said would repent in the face of such miracles? See Matthew 11 for the cite!!!

He's either God, or He's us dressed up in a monkey suit. ~ Dr. Eckleburg

Hey, the Arminian idea of God is not really even interesting. A.W. Pink has observed:


How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

[jwh_Denver]

At the same time this doctrine makes a man look down upon himself. "Ah," saith he, "I am nothing, there is nothing in me to merit esteem. I have no goodness of my own. If saved, I cannot praise myself; I cannot in any way ascribe to myself honour; God has done it, God has done it." Nothing makes the man so humble; but nothing makes him so glad;

Oh so beautiful and so true. Through grace God reveals Himself to us as our reward is to know God Almighty and His son, Jesus Christ, on an intimate and personal level and the spiritual truths God has made. He wants to show us that He is God and that He loves us so intensely. And in so doing we realize total dependence on Him is total triumph through His son Jesus Christ.

Almost all the Pauline epistles from Romans throught II Thess. 2 start with "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ". God has already given us grace and peace. Do we believe it?

No matter what we do or don't do does not or ever will stand in the way of God's grace to us. We absolutely cannot work for his unmerited favor. He's already given it to us. Once God gives you a glimmer of what grace really is in your heart you cannot help but change. And you will lift up your voice to God with praise and worship for what He has done for you through the work of His dear son, Jesus Christ.

[snerkel]

Is it not God's desire that all men be saved? Is that not the meaning behind 1 Timothy 2:3-4?

[HatSteel]

Based on these conversations, forgive my curiosity, but would you consider answering these Multiple choice questions:

1. (a) God wants everyone saved, (b) God wants many saved, (c) God wants some saved, (d) God wants no one saved.

2. (a) God will accept only all of what God wants, (b) God will accept only most of what God wants, (c) God will accept only some of what God wants, (d) God will accept none of what God wants.

3. (a) God knows everything, (b) God knows most things, (c) God knows some things, (d) God knows nothing.

4. (a) God directs everything, (b) God directs most things, (c) God directs some things, (d) God directs nothing.

5. (a) God died for everyone, (b) God died for most people, (c) God died for some people, (d) God died for no one.

6. (a) God enlightens everyone, (b) God enlightens most people, (c) God enlightens some people, (d) God enlightens no one.

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[onedoug]

One God. One universal morality. Decency toward others. Deed over creed.

[CCWoody]

Is it not God's desire that all men be saved? Is that not the meaning behind 1 Timothy 2:3-4? ~ Dr. Eckleburg

Here is my statement along those lines from just a few posts back:

Of course, along these lines is the question: If the Lord is unwilling that any perish then why was He unwilling to perform miracles in the presence of some whom He said would repent in the face of such miracles? See Matthew 11 for the cite!!!

And, here is the cite:

Matthew 11: 20 - 27
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.


• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.



Of course, as a secondary question to the 1 Ti 2:1-4 cite...

1 Timothy 2:1-4
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You will tell me that this passage does directly instruct us to pray for God to effectually accomplish nothing less than the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race.

Yet, what do we know about prayers concerning the will of God:


• John 14:13-14
  Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
  
  AND
  
  
• 1 John 5:14-15
  Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him
.
And this brings me to ask a simple question for everyone who believes that the "All men" means "All men" without exception instead of the more common "All men" without distinction:

If you were to pray for the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race, would all men without exception be saved just as the Lord himself has promised? Or was the Lord just teasing us?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

[ponyespresso]

The incorrect assumption with using Matt 11 the way you do is assuming that those miracles which were performed in Korazin and Bethsaida are the only way to come to a salvific knowledge of God. Have you seen the miracles that were performed in Korazin and Bethsaida? I haven't, yet somehow I have come to have faith in Jesus as my LORD and Savior. Yes, they clearly would have repented if they saw those miracles. But to imply that the single, solitary way ever for Tyre and Sidon to come to repentance is only by those specific miracles performed in Korazin and Bethsaida is just silly.

Now, let's get down to brass tacks. Look at Jesus' lament over Jerusalem; "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." (Matt 23:37) Don't we read here a clear expression of Jesus being hindered, not by his own power, but by the lack of willingness of others?

Or what are we to make of Jesus inability to perform miracles in Nazareth; "And Jesus said to them, 'A prophet is not without honor except in his home town and among his own relatives and in his own household." And he could do no miracle there except that He laid His hand upon a few sick people and healed them." (Mark 6:4,5) True, Jesus was able to heal some (proving yet again that an off day for Jesus was a far better day than the best day for you or I, lol) But, here again, the weight of Scripture falls to the conclusion that Jesus wanted to do miracles here, but was hindered. By what, his power? No, by the lack of belief around Him. Clearly there are times when God reigns back His power.

In reference to the 1 Timothy 2 passage, well, all I can say is that all does not mean some. If Paul wanted to say some, he would have said some. Instead, Paul says God desires all men, without exception, to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. So, we can look at it like this:

1) God desires all men, without exception, to be saved. (See also 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16)
2) God is omnipotent, so that He can do whatever He desires.
3) If God desires all men, without exception, to be saved and if God is powerful enough to bring salvation to all men, without exception, then all men should be saved.
4) All men, however, will not be saved.
5) We must conclude, then, that since man is clearly not strong enough to subvert God's will, it must be God restraining His power in some way that restricts His desire to be brought forth.

We can conclude, then, that God, in some way, allows His Grace to be resistible; indeed, it has to be for it is precisely this resistance than men will be judged. "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38)

[CCWoody]

The incorrect assumption with using Matt 11 the way you do is assuming that those miracles which were performed in Korazin and Bethsaida are the only way to come to a salvific knowledge of God. Have you seen the miracles that were performed in Korazin and Bethsaida? I haven't, yet somehow I have come to have faith in Jesus as my LORD and Savior. Yes, they clearly would have repented if they saw those miracles. But to imply that the single, solitary way ever for Tyre and Sidon to come to repentance is only by those specific miracles performed in Korazin and Bethsaida is just silly. ~ ponyespresso

It is a matter of historical fact that many died unconverted until these cities were evangelized. Yet, the Lord knew exactly what it would have taken to cause their repentance in His day; and He was unwilling to perform those miracles. This fact alone shreds the rest of your argument!!!

(Is that the sound of an argument falling apart?)

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

P.S. did you forget to answer this question in post #44?

[ponyespresso]

When the Lord makes a promise, we ought to be out of doubt that He knows, and can and will perform what He promises; otherwise, we will be accounting Him neither true nor faithful, which is UNBELIEF, the height of irreverence, and a denial of the Most High Himself!

Yet, the Arminian will tell me that it is God's expressed will and desire to save all men everywhere without any exception.

You are correct on both counts, and both counts are not mutually exclusive, as you suppose.

Yes, the LORD is faithful to His promises. However, nowhere has the LORD ever said that He promised to bring all to salvation. There are promises that come to mind that encompass all of humanity, that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD. However, if I am not mistaken, that will happen when this season of grace has finished and when Christ returns in glory. Which means that it will not be spoken by all in faith, as those of us who call on His name do now, but as a statement of awe in the presence of His majesty, of which there will be no need for faith then.

So, there is no promise from the LORD that He intends to shove salvation upon His creation, thus forcibly driving every man, without exception, to Him.

So, still, we can look at it like this:

1) God desires all men, without exception, to be saved. (See also 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16)
2) God is omnipotent, so that He can do whatever He desires.
3) If God desires all men, without exception, to be saved and if God is powerful enough to bring salvation to all men, without exception, then all men should be saved.
4) All men, however, will not be saved.
5) We must conclude, then, that since man is clearly not strong enough to subvert God's will, it must be God restraining His power in some way that restricts His desire to be brought forth.

We can conclude, then, that God, in some way, allows His Grace to be resistible; indeed, it has to be for it is precisely this resistance than men will be judged. "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38)

I believe these points still stand.

[The Grammarian]

Sounds remarkably like the Salvation Army's stance (the line about "deed over creed").

[Dahlseide]

"Bondage of the Will" is certainly NOT out of print. I have purchased a number of copies, from Amazon, even recently. Simply put, I treasure it above all books in my possession other than my Bibles.

The preface in the translation by J.I.Packard & O.R.Johnston is worthy in itself.

If you have understood Luther, even in the slightest extent more than Erasmus did, you will see that Luther considers Erasmus to have hit upon the core of the gospel, in fact attacked it, without knowing it. Then perhaps you will understand Luther's (as you put it) verbal brutality.

Luther, in stark contrast to the the Lutheran church I grew up in, is anything but Arminian.

[ponyespresso]

"Bondage of the Will" is certainly NOT out of print. I have purchased a number of copies, from Amazon, even recently. Simply put, I treasure it above all books in my possession other than my Bibles.

Well, first of all, since I don't have a credit card, I think that ordering from Amazon might be out of my reach. Also, I am currently living in England, and the bookstores here, at least, tell me that they are unable to order the book. Where you are might be a different story.