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Analysis: No more messy Mass?
UPI ^ | 5/15/2003 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

Posted on 05/16/2003 11:55:14 AM PDT by Polycarp

Analysis: No more messy Mass?

By Uwe Siemon-Netto

UPI Religion Editor

From the Life & Mind Desk

Published 5/15/2003 6:02 PM

WASHINGTON, May 15 (UPI) -- You don't have to be a Roman Catholic to feel some nostalgia for the days when the holy Mass was a less messed-up affair -- and sung in Latin. Now there are signs of hope that some of the beauty of the Church's ancient liturgy will soon return.

Vatican sources told United Press International Thursday that three congregations of the papal curia are working on a document setting liturgical norms intended to put an end to the frequently ugly abuses that have become rampant since the Second Vatican Council 1962-65.

The paper will be published before the end of the year and include "prescriptions of a juridical nature on this very important subject," as Pope John Paul II stated in his latest encyclical letter, Ecclesia de Eucharistia" (Church of the Eucharist).

In this context, a Vatican insider said it was highly significant that Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy, recently celebrated Mass according to the old Tridentine Latin rite in St. Peter's Cathedral in Rome.

"It's not that the Church will return to the Latin liturgy full-time," a Rome-based prelate cautioned, "but we should celebrate it more often." He added that this should contribute to the reconciliation between the Vatican and the followers of the late French archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, founder of the traditionalist Society of Pius X headquartered in Switzerland.

According to the Rev. John McCloskey, director of the Catholic Information Center in Washington, the desire for such reconciliation was one contributing factor in the Vatican's plans for a return to liturgical stringency.

"Now, as I understand it, nothing will stand in the way of a priest wishing to celebrate the Tridentine Mass anymore," he said. "So at least on this score there will no longer be a reason for disagreement with the Lefebvre people."

The Tridentine Mass, whose luxuriant beauty inspired some of the world's greatest composers, was celebrated in all Roman Catholic Churches from 1565 until 1965, when Vatican II bungled -- in McCloskey's words -- the liturgical reform.

That was the time, too, when altars were turned around so that the priests now stood behind them and faced the congregation while consecrating the Eucharist. Ever since, traditionalists used to jest, priests and congregants worshiped each other, a thoroughly postmodern exercise.

The Rev. Gerald E. Murray, a canon lawyer and pastor of St. Vincent de Paul's Catholic Church in New York City, bemoaned the TV culture that has taken over worship since Vatican II. "It's all about the people. Everything is directed at them; everything is didactic."

Many Protestant liturgical congregations, especially in Europe, did not automatically follow Rome's example but continued the practice of the faithful and the celebrants facing what is called the East Wall, where traditionally the altar stood in most old churches. In Catholicism, too, some priests refused to go along with the 1960s practice -- and were perfectly within their rights, McCloskey explained.

In much of the Western world, the Vatican II liturgical reforms led to a trivialization of divine service. As in many Protestant congregations, "creative pastors" strumming their guitars to folksy tunes often became the norm. This liturgical free-for-all following the abandonment of the Latin Mass "must have driven hundreds of thousands out of our churches," McCloskey reckoned.

John Paul II has long been painfully aware of this -- and the need to place a "final point" under Vatican II, correcting this mistake. This "final point" will presumably consist of two things: first, a general permission for all priests to celebrate the Latin Mass whenever they wish, which especially highly educated urban Catholics desire, according to Murray -- and second, crystal-clear rules for other forms of divine service,

Like all other clerics interviewed for this story, McCloskey sounded enthusiastic about this expected new development in his church: "This is extremely important -- it is extremely good."

Copyright © 2001-2003 United Press International


TOPICS: Catholic; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; mass
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1 posted on 05/16/2003 11:55:15 AM PDT by Polycarp
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To: .45MAN; AKA Elena; al_c; american colleen; Angelus Errare; Antoninus; aposiopetic; Aquinasfan; ...
More evidence that this is more than just "rumor"

"Now, as I understand it, nothing will stand in the way of a priest wishing to celebrate the Tridentine Mass anymore," he said. "So at least on this score there will no longer be a reason for disagreement with the Lefebvre people."

This liturgical free-for-all following the abandonment of the Latin Mass "must have driven hundreds of thousands out of our churches," McCloskey reckoned.

...John Paul II has long been painfully aware of this -- and the need to place a "final point" under Vatican II, correcting this mistake. This "final point" will presumably consist of two things: first, a general permission for all priests to celebrate the Latin Mass whenever they wish, which especially highly educated urban Catholics desire, according to Murray -- and second, crystal-clear rules for other forms of divine service,

Like all other clerics interviewed for this story, McCloskey sounded enthusiastic about this expected new development in his church: "This is extremely important -- it is extremely good."

2 posted on 05/16/2003 11:58:56 AM PDT by Polycarp (the homo issue could be the albatross that "Read my lips" was for his papa -- CKCA'ers, UNITE!!!)
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To: Polycarp
"especially highly educated urban Catholics desire,"

Somebody better tell him many of these folks have moved to greener pastures.
3 posted on 05/16/2003 12:24:13 PM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...you don't have to live in the city to desire to see the latin Mass)
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To: Polycarp
A HUGE bump for a return to a more reverant and traditional Mass! Let's hope for the best.
4 posted on 05/16/2003 12:33:29 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: Polycarp
crystal-clear rules for other forms of divine service

Presumably, stricter norms for the celebration of the NO mass will be instituted(?). I'm hoping the pope points to the EWTN mass and sanctions that as the norm. This may leave a lot of musicians in the lurch.

Don't the bishops have some say in their own dioceses? Can they pose a stumbling block?

5 posted on 05/16/2003 12:55:33 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
Can they pose a stumbling block?

They'll certainly try.

I hope the document banning gay priests is published at the same time.

There seems to be a major crossover between liturgical nazis and liturgical queens.

6 posted on 05/16/2003 1:10:17 PM PDT by Polycarp (the homo issue could be the albatross that "Read my lips" was for Bush's papa -- CKCA'ers, UNITE!!!)
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To: Pyro7480
Bump!
7 posted on 05/16/2003 1:48:39 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: Pyro7480
I'm a Lutheran, but our traditional liturgy is very closely modeled on the traditional Mass. In the 60's (damnable hippies!), the trend came in with all other Protestant churches with the strumming guitars, happy-clappy songs, etc. To me, this type of service is very "me" centered, very non-reverential, non-worshipful of God. Like those in this article, there are many of us who are seeking to return to the traditional service, which places God at the center of worship, not the self. Kudos to the Catholics for this move, I hope they can pull it off in the face of a very "me" centered boomer generation that is running the churches in America.
8 posted on 05/16/2003 2:17:36 PM PDT by egarvue (Martin Sheen is not my president...)
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To: Alberta's Child; Aloysius; AniGrrl; Antoninus; Bellarmine; Canticle_of_Deborah; Dajjal; ...
PING
9 posted on 05/16/2003 2:36:44 PM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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To: Polycarp
This "final point" will presumably consist of two things: first, a general permission for all priests to celebrate the Latin Mass whenever they wish,

I was switching through channels last week and happened on EWTN's News progam and heard that this might be in the works. I asked our pastor and he said it was not a rumor and was a definate. The only question is how it will be worded. Universal indult means any priest can say the Tridentine without permission from the local Bishop. One interesting thing my pastor said was that our Archbishop is not opposed to the Tridentine but has never given permission for it to be said. He thinks that because the Cardinals would have known this was coming for at least a year, the Cardinal probably decided he didn't need to take the "heat" for deciding to allow the Tridentine to be said and will just wait for the universal indult.

Our parish is in good shape to immediately start using the Tridentine but I doubt many churches would even be able to say the Latin Novus Ordo much less the Tridentine. I am very happy to hear that norms are coming and that there will be a universal indult. It will take a long time to recover the sacred nature of the liturgy in some churches. I am always stunned to see the Eucharist ignored in Catholic Churches and the blatant disregard for Catholic heritage and beauty. Thanks for posting the article.

10 posted on 05/16/2003 2:42:24 PM PDT by Diva
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To: Polycarp
Lots of luck. After letting sloppiness rule for forty years, it will take a while to bring things back under control. And in America it will take the cooperation not only of the bishops but of their staffs and liturgists. Many of these people are dissenters, who will make just as much trouble as they can before the reforms are put into practice.

Conservative Protestants should be pleased by this initiative. It will, indirectly, lend support to conservative and traditional Catholics, who are most likely to see eye-to-eye with Evangelicals on social and political issues.
11 posted on 05/16/2003 2:52:17 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Polycarp; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ...
The train is coming down the tracks, the Modernists can hear it too. This is gonna get ugly.
12 posted on 05/16/2003 2:54:43 PM PDT by narses (Christe Eleison)
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To: Polycarp; Loyalist
The Tridentine Mass, whose luxuriant beauty inspired some of the world's greatest composers, was celebrated in all Roman Catholic Churches from 1565 until 1965,

Just what were we offering before?

when Vatican II bungled -- in McCloskey's words -- the liturgical reform.

I am very surprised to hear him say this. Isn't McCloskey Opus Dei?

13 posted on 05/16/2003 2:58:34 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
The Mass was essentially unchanged from the sixth century until 1965.

The Tridentine Rite is itself a bit of a misnomer, as the Council of Trent and Quo Primum did not create a new rite, but instead codified the established liturgical practice in the West, with the exception of a number of local rites.

14 posted on 05/16/2003 3:18:04 PM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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To: narses
I see disinformation the above article.

In any case, can someone tell the author of that article that the Mass and Faith go hand in hand? That's the reason why certain groups are still holding out right now. The SSPX, for instance, is in no rush to do anything, so long as they see the modernist prelates running the show.

It would be much easier for the Vatican to settle the score if they were committed to restoring traditional faith either before or at the same time as restoring the Mass.
15 posted on 05/16/2003 3:18:34 PM PDT by huskyboy (Introibo ad altare Dei; non ad altare hominis!)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
I am very surprised to hear him say this. Isn't McCloskey Opus Dei?

McCloskey is very much Opus Dei, which has opposed the return of the Traditional Mass.

Something is strange with this report. Of course, one of the upcoming documents praised in this article is the new G.I.R.M., which, among other things, will command that all congregants in a church stand until every last person has received Communion.

Just what were we offering before [1565]?

Well, it wasn't the "Tridentine" Mass. The Traditional Roman Liturgy was performed with minor local variants throughout Western Europe. The Council of Trent standardized the Missal for all Europe (with a few exceptions, like Milan).

It was intended as a move to fight Protestantism. Personally, I have some doubts about the wisdom of the effort. Trent centralized litugical decisions in a way that had not been done previously. Vatican II could overturn the Traditional Mass only because Trent had given it the centralized power to do so.

16 posted on 05/16/2003 3:49:42 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: narses; Polycarp
"Now, as I understand it, nothing will stand in the way of a priest wishing to celebrate the Tridentine Mass anymore," he said. "So at least on this score there will no longer be a reason for disagreement with the Lefebvre people." The Tridentine Mass, whose luxuriant beauty inspired some of the world's greatest composers, was celebrated in all Roman Catholic Churches from 1565 until 1965, when Vatican II bungled -- in McCloskey's words -- the liturgical reform.

There never should have been anything preventing the old Latin Mass to begin with. Future church historians are going to have to look at this whole postconciliar period with inquiring eyes to make sense out of all of the loony modernist extremisms and abuses which were spawned by "liberals" in the church. It's bizarre but when they stopped requiring seminarians to learn Latin during the giddy period a lot of liturgical nonsense resulted because clerical liberals were too lazy to study. The tendency to make the priesthood just another career option opened the doors for much of the nonsense and, sadly, many of the horrors that followed.

17 posted on 05/16/2003 4:09:29 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Polycarp
The return of Latin and associated reforms is a long delayed recognition of the failure of the 60’s generation’s “reforms”. (I personally think that all churches would be wise to reject all religious thought after 1960.) The marijuana induced narcissism has not built up the Christian church.

I grew up with the KJV, “Good News for Modern Man” came out when I was an early teenager. At the time I welcomed the clear language, now I loath modern “translations”. Recently I heard a translation of the 23rd Psalm (at a funeral) that ended with “I will live in the house of God as long as I live”. The constant revision of liturgy and scripture only opens them up for secular revisionists.

Previous generations understood the need for commonality. Roman Catholics had Latin, Anglicans had the Book of Common Prayer. Look at the mess in both churches. The Anglican church now has so many liturgical choices there is nothing common.
18 posted on 05/16/2003 4:10:31 PM PDT by hiho hiho
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To: Dajjal
Of course, one of the upcoming documents praised in this article is the new G.I.R.M., which, among other things, will command that all congregants in a church stand until every last person has received Communion.

I thought there was an exception granted for the U.S. in this instance. Under the GIRM, we're supposed to stand immediately after the priest prepares the gifts and washes his hands, unlike what I was used to before. Under the exception, Americans can kneel during the Eucharistic prayer, and after they receive Communion.

Concerning Fr. McClosky and Opus Dei, this is the first I heard that they opposed the Tridentine Mass' return. I actually left him a copy of this article when I visited the Catholic Information Center about 2 hours ago. I recently moved to Washington, DC, and I wanted to go back there to get the RSV Catholic Edition of the Bible and a new book about Tolkien. So before I left work, I printed a copy for him, and one of the workers there left the copy on his desk, since he was out leading a retreat this weekend.

19 posted on 05/16/2003 4:36:36 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: Pyro7480; Dajjal
By the way, I actually haven't met Fr. McClosky yet, but I would like to soon.
20 posted on 05/16/2003 4:37:23 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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