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To: FactQuest
Good argument. But I see it as a gift. God offers a gift. Some accept it, some don't. Does this make the gift-receivers god-like, or make God their debtor? I don't think so.

Will God save every man that chooses correctly?
If you believe that then you have constrained God and made salvation the payment to man for choosing correctly ..God then owes man salvation.

A salvation not by grace. For the grace was applied after the work. God saw the man choose correctly so God then chose Him correct? Man has "free will" but God is bound by the decision of the man .

Man has more free will than God in this theology God can not refuse anyone He wants or save any that were not smart enough to make the correct choice

For a Christian, the Gift was already offered and accepted, there is no debt. God is not "forced to abide" by the choice of the gift receiver, rather, the would-be gift-receiver is forced to choose between life and death. As Moses said, we should "choose life"

You are misappling scripture here and I think you are aware of it..as this is about the taking of the land not about "choosing" salvation.

What earns? Man is totally depraved, God quickens him, calls him, grants him the ability to make a choice to believe. If he believes, if he accepts the incredible free gift then he is saved.

Sorry to burst your bubble , but you have men deciding to choose God . Seeing that all men have the grace in your belief all men are then spiritually alive , they are no longer spiritually dead. They are now able to do what a dead man can not do , save himself with his choice.

What makes one choose and not another? Is one smarter or more able? If it is Gods desire that all be saved why did he not freely give each man the amount of grace necesary to make an affirmative decision?

Not by works, not by offerings he makes, not even by obedience, just faith. The leap of faith is not a work. A choice is not a work

Where does one get the faith to believe?.

70 posted on 05/14/2003 1:11:25 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I want to thank you for the patience and graciousness of your posts. I know I am "arguing," but much of it is more as an exploration than as trying to convince you of a belief I strongly hold, (although I couldn't blame you for thinking otherwise). I find this debate style helpful, I hope I'm not too tiresome. Anyway...

Will God save every man that chooses correctly? If you believe that then you have constrained God and made salvation the payment to man for choosing correctly ..God then owes man salvation.

I see what you are saying. It is a subtle disctinction. But to answer your question, I tentatively contend that yes, God will save every man that chooses correctly. But I don't see it as man constraining God, I see it as God constraining Himself. He is always faithful and just, and this is self-imposed constraint.

Salvation is not owed any man. To (over)simplify it, lets say I offer you a gift. You can either take it, or not. If you take it, do I then owe it to you? I want you to have it, but I'm not going to force you to take it. If you take it, how then am I constrained by your choice? You have submitted to my will, not vice-versa.

A salvation not by grace. For the grace was applied after the work. God saw the man choose correctly so God then chose Him correct? Man has "free will" but God is bound by the decision of the man .

There was certainly grace in the providing of the gift in the first place. There was no other way to ever get the gift. I could never earn the gift.

God can not refuse anyone He wants or save any that were not smart enough to make the correct choice

Again, my contention is that God does not refuse anyone, nor does He want to. Nor does He force anyone to become Christian. But, you do bring to mind Paul's conversion, and that was powerful, it would appear he receive more grace than some. I'm not sure how that fits in. But, I don't think election implies compulsion. Where is the faith, if I am perforce made a Christian?

And, I don't think I was mis-applying the "choose life" passage. Many think it was an intentionally doubled meaning.

Sorry to burst your bubble , but you have men deciding to choose God . Seeing that all men have the grace in your belief all men are then spiritually alive , they are no longer spiritually dead. They are now able to do what a dead man can not do , save himself with his choice.

Well, that's not exactly what I was saying. I agreed that all men are spiritually dead. That the Holy Spirit touches them, raising them to a status of free will - raising them to Adamic status, if you will. At that time, and only then, are they able to make a free-will choice to accept God's gift. So, we're up to double-grace - grace to have the gift available, grace to be quickened to be able to accept the gift. I see no room for boasting.

What makes one choose and not another? Is one smarter or more able? If it is Gods desire that all be saved why did he not freely give each man the amount of grace necesary to make an affirmative decision?

Excellent questions. Working backwards, had He given all men so much grace that they all accepted, how would that be different from compulsion? They would not be men, but robots. God wants our free-will faith. Why do some choose differently? I don't know. Love of themself, love of their sin, they think they don't need God. Certainly some are more blessed. Some of the blessing is passed down from previous generations - the blessing of the father's faith. Not a popular idea in our culture, where we feel every man deserves exactly the same amount of chance as everybody else. But supportable biblically.

Where does one get the faith to believe?.

You saved the best question for last. I don't know. I realize that if I answer "God," then I seem to be working against myself here. But how can it be anything other than God? If I say man, then I place man too high. Hmm. Perhaps, God placed within man the potential for faith, that is stirred during the quickening. Thus, the faith comes from God, but the grace is still not irrestible. If Paul had turned down the gift, God would have raised a different man.
73 posted on 05/15/2003 10:24:31 AM PDT by FactQuest
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