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But when you say this, you are tossing out the entire Romans passage I provided.

The Romans passage is complex, but it seems to be dealing with two diffent "elections" - that of the nation of Israel, and that of individuals, throughout chapters 9 thru 11. Your passage applies to the nation, and is perhaps it is wrongly applied to the individual.

Paul consistently teaches that salvation comes by faith - and faith is an excercise of man's will. I don't doubt that the exercising of a saving faith must be preceded by a quickening. But Paul clearly teaches faith comes before salvation, not the other way around.

Romans 1:16 "the gospel … is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes."

According to Romans 1:18–32, the heathen who knew God (knew about his eternal power and divine nature) responded against God. "Therefore" God gave them over to their own evil.

In Romans 4:3, and again in 4:23–24, Paul states that just as Abraham's belief formed the basis for his righteousness, so our belief forms the basis for our righteousness. Both for Abraham and for us, the granting of positional righteousness stems from our faith. But doesn't Calvinism teach something different — that God's choice alone forms the basis for our righteousness?

Look at how God's will is never thwarted.

That makes God the author of all sin. I would argue that every sin is the thwarting of God's will. And see that throughout the Bible.

Look at God choosing a nation.

Choosing a nation is quite different than individual salvation.

We are taught to pray "Thy will be done." Not an sinners will.

If it cannot ever be thwarted, then why pray for it? We aren't taught to pray that the sun will rise. I'm not clear on where you're going with that sinners will bit...

When we pray, we always pray like Calvinists! "Lord, move in my friends heart so they will come to you." It's never, "Well God, I would like them to be saved, but I know that it's their free will, so I guess our hands are tied."

This is an interesting point. Why would Calvinists pray that, seeing as how it is solely God's choice? Do they think their petitions will change God's election? Conversely, do they think a prayer will overturn God's will to not save the person? I think the above prayer more accurately reflects a recognition that the person must be quickened, made aware of their sins, awakened to true free will, and that perhaps this time the person will make the right choice.

Talk to a brand new Christian. The vast majority have no problem with predestination. They are still new enough in their walks that they realize they were called and could not resist. It is only when they start to hear free will being wrongly preached that they get off track.

Unfortunately, I fear you may have wandered into sophistry. Are brand new Christians more reliable guides as to the true nature of salvation? Even though they may have read the Bible hardly at all? Seems this is an upside-down appeal to authority. The vast majority? How many is that, in both raw numbers and percentages? I still remember my conversion clear as a bell, even all these years later. I struggled, yet in the end, made the choice to put my faith in Jesus, repent from sin, and follow Him. The submission of my will was the hardest part to overcome. As to hearing free will wrongly preached, well, there is plenty of wrong preaching out there, unfortunately. I certainly don't consider myself Arminian, much less Pelagian, but I think the Bible does speaks clearly of free will.

I think the Bible does speaks clearly of free will.

OK, I'll bite, where? Only once is the term free will used in scripture and it is not in the context of salvation.

Paul consistently teaches that salvation comes by faith

And where does that faith come from? Romans 9 clearly teaches it comes from Gods election.

the heathen who knew God (knew about his eternal power and divine nature) responded against God

And why is that? They knew! Clearly they are capable of understanding God's power. And yet they did not have faith, why? Again, the answer is in Romans 9.

That makes God the author of all sin.

Not hardly, but he allows sin to show his power, to thwart the evil one. (Reread Joseph being sold into slavery, when Jacob dies. His brothers are afraid that he will seek vengence. But how does Joseph respond? By showing how God rules over sin! Genesis 50: 19 But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. Now, don't confuse that with being the author of sin, but he uses sin to demonstate his power and glory. Read Job. Satan was powerless to harm Job unless God allowed it.

When Job cries out and questions God, he is quickly dressed down: (a scary prsopect indeed) Job 38 The LORD Speaks 1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.

And again Job 40 1 The LORD said to Job: 2 "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!" 3 Then Job answered the LORD : 4 "I am unworthy-how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. 5 I spoke once, but I have no answer- twice, but I will say no more." 6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm: 7 "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 8 "Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

My computer was acting up so I couldn't finish, sorry!

Where were we....Oh yes,

Choosing a nation is quite different than individual salvation.

It's a common theme throughout. God chooses in all manner of situations, it's not limited to one aspect of the human expierience. And is it so different? Is it fair that we are born in America and others are born in countries where they have very little chance to hear the Gospel? No, that is all part of God's good will.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Heb 9:15 Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance...

This is an interesting point. Why would Calvinists pray that, seeing as how it is solely God's choice? Do they think their petitions will change God's election?

We pray to glorify God, to carry out his will. That is what we are taught in scripture. We pray as part of God's plan, to be his tool, to fulfill his will.

Rom 8:30 And those WHOM He predestined He also called; and those whom He called He also justified; and those whom He justified He also glorified.

Unfortunately, I fear you may have wandered into sophistry. Are brand new Christians more reliable guides as to the true nature of salvation?

I clearly did not develop my point enough, as the young people say "My bad!"

My point here is not that they have developed a theological insight, but they realize what wretched creatures they were at the time they were called. They realize that they were powerless to resist God's will.

made the choice to put my faith in Jesus

I challenge you to think back to when you came to Christ. Did you sit and examine the claims of Christ and come to a rational well thought out decision, much like when you buy a car insurance policy? I would guess when you when you heard the effectual call, and accepted Christ, you were devistated at your condition and came with a broken heart, much like my pool of water analogy? I may be wrong, but I have never had anyone answer otherwise. [Of course, there is always a first. ;-) ]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

The submission of my will was the hardest part to overcome.

And yet you did, why? Think back, were you really able to resist when the actual moment came?, All in God's time my Friend

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.

II Cor 3:17-18 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

1 Pet 1:2 ....chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with His blood...

Gal 1:15-16 But when He who has set me apart before I was born, and has called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son to me, in order that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood.

The vast majority? How many is that, in both raw numbers and percentages?

Well, I have never seen a well designed scientific study on the matter, but I have talked to countless Christians, and I have never had one disagree with me.... When faced with scriptural proff, the all agree readily, they were drawn and powerless to resist.

John 1:12-13 But to all who received Him, who believed in His name, He gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Again, any verses that point to free will will be fully considered....