What's Inside the Trojan Horse? (John MacArthur)

Oneplace.com ^ | March 16, 2003 | John MacArthur

[anncoulteriscool]

I think alot of the points here are most valid especially here in the south where the church can take on the form of a social club.

[anncoulteriscool]

PING!

[RnMomof7]

Ahhhhhhhh one of my favorite preacher:>)

Reform Bump

[RnMomof7]

I am currently reading "What Happened to the Gospel of Grace" By Boid

He asseses the condition of Evangelical Churches ..it is not a pretty picture.

I would reccomend it to any that have an interest in the growth of the INVISIBLE Church

[anniegetyourgun]

Thanks for the ping, Mom. I will return to read this in-depth. I like JM too.

[anniegetyourgun]

Having only recently moved to 'the south', I'm finding that to be (sadly) very true. At least when I lived in the most unchurched area of the U.S., generally speaking, only those who were sincere were willing to put up with the hostility and ridicule that came with being (at a minimum) a twice/weekly attender.

[oldcodger]

Thanks for the ping, RnMomof7. I'd been wondering if your bump list was still in effect.

I'm glad to say that this article doesn't apply to my local PCA church. We hear the Bible faithfully preached every Sunday. We also have wonderful music! I think I now have a better understanding of what it means to worship "in spirit and truth" than I did before I became a Calvnist. John Piper wrote that worship is an end in itself, not a means to an end. How true!

[LiteKeeper]

My former pastor...he officiated at our wedding.

Did you see his two appearances on Larry King LIve...he was only one standing on the Word, and the Gospel!

[Don'tMessWithTexas]

A good friend attended John's church and seminary in California. Johnny Mac is a good man.

[RnMomof7]

My former pastor...he officiated at our wedding. Did you see his two appearances on Larry King LIve...he was only one standing on the Word, and the Gospel!

Yes I did see him..I am always impressed with his zeal for the gospel!

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Did you notice that this was a swipe at the "happy-clappy" Rick-Warren-Purpose-Driven-abomination-posing-as-worship-church without mentioning names? (sorry, i've been lurking too many threads in which f.Christian was posting, and his (?) incomprehensible posts, lacking standard syntax got to me!)

It seems that we have a war in our congregations in which we will either 1) Worship God in Spirit and in Truth; or 2) Worship man by accomidating our gatherings to the whims of the unregenerate;

[RnMomof7]

Buy the Boice book and give it to a few to read..

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

As in James Montgomery Boice, deceased pastor of Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia?

[anncoulteriscool]

****Did you see his two appearances on Larry King LIve...he was only one standing on the Word, and the Gospel!****

Yes I saw that to. In fact it was that appearance that prompted the Bush white house to invite MacArthur to the White House along with some other evangelicals.

[anncoulteriscool]

John Macarthur has a 2 hour tape out called "Does the truth Matter Anymore?". Its a really good tape where he talks about alot of the issues talked about in this article.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

i'm pretty familiar with MacAuthur's work. While there are a few calls that i disagree with him on (Polity stuff, he's a Baptist, i'm a Presbyterian), he is solidly biblical. With people like him and R.C.Sproul on the air waves, CopelandHagin doesn't frighten me so much.

Sometimes i am still amased at how God moves His shepherds and His Watchmen to the same place at the same time. i have been reading some of the work of a Layman named Paul Proctor who has been dealing with the subject of the Apostate Church. He cites the present Church Growth movement in particular. Note also that The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (Michael Horton's organisation), has been dealing with this same subject since the early 90's.

i'm fighting this war within my own church. Our Leadership has decided to study and implement the Saddleback model, and are pushing Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Church. i have informed the leadership that they will do this over their dead bodies (i don't plan on dying alone). So we see a "line in the sand" mentality.

You know, i've always wondered...If we are trying to market the church as we would a business,...

1) Who are the "customers"?
2) Who are the "employees"?
3) Who are the "Bosses"?
4) What is the "product"?
5) Didn't Jesus chase the "businessmen" out of the temple?
6) What's the difference between marketing animal sacrifices, and marketing the sacrifice of Christ?

Just some thoughts.

[anncoulteriscool]

Thanks for the response! I dont think Macarthur is a baptist though. I think he belongs to the Grace Brethren or Grace churches. His church website is www.gracechurch.org but I'm pretty sure he's not a baptist per se, atleast not a southern baptist.

[sheltonmac]

I think that the problem with evangelical pragmatism goes back to the 1950s, to evangelical leaders like Billy Graham. One of the problems I've had with his style of evangelism is that results are measured in terms of how many people "came forward" at one of his crusades. It was as if the parable of the sower had no significance whatsoever.

[drstevej]

Actually I have been through the counselor training for a Graham Crusade and served as a Counselor Supervisor in the Atlanta Crusade (many) years back.

We were told not to presume that those walking forward were doing so because they were desirous of trusting Christ. We were trained how to interview those coming forward to discern what their need was and to minister to that need. As a supervisor my job was to listen in on these discussions and help with more complicated issues or questions.

I also was asked to look out for cult members who would walk forward and try to influence others walking forward. I broke up several of these situations.

Those who respond to the message are followed up by local churches.

I can offer many points of criticism to the process, but I think your summary needed some further explanation.

BTW, my "favorite" evangelist was George Whitefield.

[sheltonmac]

Thanks. It's good to hear that local churches followed up. That's the way it should work. I guess I singled out Billy Graham for no other reason than he is perhaps the most recognizable figure who uses that kind of evangelistic approach.

I know many evangelical Christians--whether part of a singing group or short-term missions team--who shared reports like "350 people accepted Christ," or "Half of the people in the village were saved." They may have had methods for following up, but we never really heard that side of it. People always seem to be more interested in the emotional, heart-warming aspect of evangelism.