When you bosom starts burning there is a little temperature sensitive thermometer in your chest that pops up.
When it pops you're saved. How hard can that be?
Posted on 04/19/2003 7:32:39 AM PDT by drstevej
Thus, according to you, Christ's love is conditional and able to be withdrawn. That's not security; that's manipulative and temportal.
Eternal security is knowing that if God knows everything, He already knows who will sit with Him in heaven and who won't. So in God's mind, it is set in stone. If we are graced by God's touch to know Christ and follow his lead, we realize Christ's sacrifice has allowed us to be counted among those with God.
That's security. And it's eternal.
It is not based on what we do after we believe. It is based on the fact that we do believe.
BTW Doc, how do you know that you are elect? What process did you go through so that you knew you that you had done what is necessary to convince yourself that you were one of the "elect"?
And how do you KNOW that you have eternal life?
Is it based on the fact that after you believed that you have managed to live a good life? Is it based on the fact that after you believed you are able to keep his commandments? Or is it based on the fact that after you believed you fulfilled your end of the promise (you believed) and now it is God's responsiblity to give you the eternal life that He promised to those who believe?
That should be your first hint that you are reading it wrong:>)
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
"How can we square this verse with predestination? If it is not the will of God to elect everyone unto salvation, how can the Bible then say that God is not willing that any should perish?
In the first place we must understand that the Bible speaks of the will of God in more than one way. For example, the Bible speaks of what we call God’s sovereign efficacious will. The sovereign will of God is that will by which God brings things to pass with absolute certainty. Nothing can resist the will of God in this sense. By his sovereign will he created the world. The light could not have refused to shine.
The second way in which the Bible speaks of the will of God is with respect to what we call his preceptive will. God’s preceptive will refers to his commands, his laws. It is God’s will that we do the things he mandates. We are capable of disobeying this will. We do in fact break his commandments. We cannot do it with impunity. We do it without his permission or sanction. Yet we do it. We sin.
A third way the Bible speaks of the will of God has reference to God’s disposition, to what is pleasing to him. God does not take delight in the death of the wicked. There is a sense in which the punishment of the wicked does not bring joy to God. He chooses to do it because it is good to punish evil. He delights in the righteousness of his judgment but is “sad” that such righteous judgment must be carried out. It is something like a judge sitting on a bench and sentencing his own son to prison.
Let us apply these three possible definitions to the passage in 2 Peter. If we take the blanket statement, “God is not willing that any should perish,” and apply the sovereign efficacious will to it, the conclusion is obvious. No one will perish. If God sovereignly decrees that no one should perish, and God is God, then certainly no one will ever perish. This would then be a proof text not for Arminianism but for universalism. The text would then prove too much for Arminians.
Suppose we apply the definition of the preceptive will of God to this passage? Then the passage would mean that God does not allow anyone to perish. That is, he forbids the perishing of people. It is against his law. If people then went ahead and perished, God would have to punish them for perishing. His punishment for perishing would be more perishing. But how does one engage in more perishing than perishing? This definition will not work in this passage. It makes no sense.
The third alternative is that God takes no delight in the perishing of people. This squares with what the Bible says elsewhere about God’s disposition toward the lost. This definition could fit this passage. Peter may simply be saying here that God takes no delight in the perishing of anyone.
Though the third definition is a possible and attractive one to use in resolving this passage with what the Bible teaches about predestination, there is yet another factor to be considered. The text says more than simply that God is not willing that any should perish. The whole clause is important: “but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
What is the antecedent of any? It is clearly us. Does us refer to all of us humans? Or does it refer to us Christians, the people of God? Peter is fond of speaking of the elect as a special group of people. I think what he is saying here is that God does not will that any of us (the elect) perish. If that is his meaning, then the text would demand the first definition and would be one more strong passage in favor of predestination.
In two different ways the text may easily be harmonized with predestination. In no way does it support Arminianism. Its only other possible meaning would be universalism, which would then bring it into conflict with everything else the Bible says against universalism."
Sproul, R. (. C. (1986). Chosen by God. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.
So what happened on Calvary ?
Was anyone saved that day?
And as far as the bushmen go ...
Luke 12:47-48 "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
So then because no bush man can do as God (the master) has ordered then the bush man is lost correst? Because The bible says thay ALL men are without excuse as all men have the law written on their heart ..so having that law on their heart and the Jews the law on tablets they are responsible to keep it PERFECTLY .
The only one that ever kept the Law perfectly was Jesus ..
The Law points us to Christ
If you note the scripture you used speaks to levels of reward and punishment..NO where does it say that ALL is forgiven the one that knew not. Read Romans 1-3
It is not based on what we do after we believe. It is based on the fact that we do believe.
Logical inconsistancey
You believe that God does not want Robots to love Him, so he gives them free will to choose him....But apparently you become a robot after you are saved and God does not mind keeping you saved by making you a robot.
And how do you KNOW that you have eternal life?
How do you KNOW you have ? Because you said the formula prayer? Or because you have the witness of the Holy Spirit?
Marlowe does all ALWAYS mean all of all sorts and kind?
All my kids are having a birthday party for me tomorrow...But that is not quite true..all my local kids are having the party ...all does not mean all
If you were going to be intellectually honest you know that is true in your own speech
I have showed you it is true in Greek
Now for no
The scripture :
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
oudeis {oo-dice'} including feminine oudemia {oo-dem-ee'-ah} and neuter ouden {oo-den'}
Part of Speech pron Outline of Biblical Usage
1) no one, nothing
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 236
AV - no man 94, nothing 68, none 27, no 24, any man 3, any 3, man 2, neither any man 2, misc 13; 236
How would you answer that question Rn?
How would the [FR Fifth Amendment]s answer that question?
I resent RIGHTLY dividing the word of God (as I showed you with the Greek translation) with the liar Clinton
I respectfully ask you to withdraw that comment
For your information Augustine , Luther, Calvin, Knox, Spurgeon , Whitfield , Edwards were all alot more biblically literate than Marlowe ..and none of them were liars
I know I am saved by the grace of God Corin...I have the witness of the Holy Spirit as I know you do.
It looks like rain today)
Explain how reliance on the promises of God could be considered a logical inconsistency.
I am not responsible for keeping myself saved. What is logically inconsistent about that? You calvinists are stuck with the logical inconsistency of claiming that nothing you can do can change whether or not you are an "elect", that if you are an "elect" God will make you an "elect" no matter what you do in this life, yet if you claim to be an elect, the only way you will know is not if you "believe" but if YOU perservere.
I will perservere because I believe, not because I try to be a good person.
So keep trying, Mom. Your efforts to do good works in order to ensure your salvation appears to be evidence that you don't believe. It is evidence that you cannot accept the promise of God that those who believe HAVE eternal life. If you don't want to accept that promise, then it would seem that you have rejected that promise. Pity.
I'll rely on the promises of God. Not on my subjective feelings that maybe what I am feeling is the Holy Spirit. I know it is the Holy Spirit because I am relying on the word of God and the promises of God. The [FR 5th Amemdments] claim to have the witness of the Holy Spirit. Do they? I believe that their witness is not in line with the scriptures thus their subjective feelings are not the Holy Spirit.
So go ahead and rely on your subjective feelings of electness, and the evidence of Good deeds. That is what the [FR 5th Amendments] do. See how far that gets you. If you cannot rely totally on the promises of God as given in the scripture, then I personally think it is evidence of unbelief.
But you are responsible for saving your self. You had the free will to choose Christ or not. But once you choose him you lose your "free will" and can no longer vote pro or con on God..a puppet on a string.
There are scriptures that wesleyans will be glad to share that indicate you can lose your salvation so a claim to base your once saved always saved theology on scripture falls short ..
?You calvinists are stuck with the logical inconsistency of claiming that nothing you can do can change whether or not you are an "elect", that if you are an "elect" God will make you an "elect" no matter what you do in this life, yet if you claim to be an elect, the only way you will know is not if you "believe" but if YOU perservere.
Actually eternal security is ONLY consistant with Reform theology
God elects to salvation ..for all time and all eternity it was HIS choice. He drew us to Himself with His grace. He gave us the gift of new life , His word gave us faith and we repented and believed . Not because we were smarter ot had more self control than anyone.. He knew us from before the foundation of the world, He chose us and he keeps us..
I will perservere because I believe, not because I try to be a good person.
What if you stop believing?
So keep trying, Mom. Your efforts to do good works in order to ensure your salvation appears to be evidence that you don't believe. It is evidence that you cannot accept the promise of God that those who believe HAVE eternal life. If you don't want to accept that promise, then it would seem that you have rejected that promise. Pity.
Marlowe you are a good lawyer..but it is bad form to misstate anothers position like that .Some might even say it is an attempt to sway the jury:>). My salvation is not by works it is by grace..I am saved and kept by grace. That is why it is called mercy
I'll rely on the promises of God. Not on my subjective feelings that maybe what I am feeling is the Holy Spirit.
I rely totally on the word of God Marlowe ..
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
2Cr 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son
God is faithful and true I can lean on His word as reassurence ..but even that is a mark of the Holy Spirit ..feelings are subjective BUT through it all..trial , pain , sadness I KNOW that I know that I know ...His word is true.
When you bosom starts burning there is a little temperature sensitive thermometer in your chest that pops up.
When it pops you're saved. How hard can that be?
I believe that faith - regeneration is the actual order. We're talking nano-seconds here. I think we have a photo finish. Hold your tickets.
And why do we believe? Are we so much smarter than the Jews, or the Bushmen, or the Moslems, or the agnosics or the FR-5th? Are we better people; less sinful; less fallen?
No, we believe because God opened our hearts to Christ. It was His gift to us, not the other way around.
Marlowe, does God know if you are saved?
Or is He holding His breath, hoping you don't slip up?
It makes a difference. It affords you Eternal Security...which the Arminian worries about loosing at any time.
And to say faith precedes regeneration, even by a nanosecond, means it's still in YOUR control. You choose to believe, then you are regenerated.
Nope. God does not wait on man.
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