The Theology of John Calvin

http://www.markers.com/ink/bbwcalvin2.htm ^ | Benjamin B. Warfield (1851-1921)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Should I repeat the question?

Only if you haven't yet read CDL's post #452; RnMom's post #432.

God created Paul (and all of us) to be true to our fallen and sinful natures.

Paul did just what God created him to do, i.e. kill Christians, blaspheme, deny God.

God also created Paul to renounce his evil life and become a devoted example of God's grace for all of us to follow.

God created Judas in the same way, but he wasn't as fortunate as Paul.

God's the director; we're the players; the script has been written from before time. And the flickering shadows cannot change the celluloid images once God has yelled "Cut." That's because God is also the producer, set designer, location manager, make-up man, ticket-taker and projectionist.

[JesseShurun]

Paul did just what God created him to do, i.e. kill Christians, blaspheme, deny God.

No, good DR,( I know, I know, who am I calling good!)Paul sinned against God, as he knew better. He chose to sin, killing men, women and children,telling himself that he was doing God's will, but he knew the ten commandments, he knew everything in the Hebrew bible. Now you really are blaming God for our sins.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

As RnMom used to ask, over and over, "Why does one man choose God and another not?" If we're all fallen and none of us seeks the face of God, what makes the difference?

The Calvinist would say the difference is God's choice. God chooses to open hardened hearts to His gracious gift of faith.

And if we are among the fortunate recipients, we will (eventually) realize it and do God's bidding, happily, thankfully, confidently.

[P-Marlowe]

So God was kidding huh? He really doesn't set before man life or death and ask him to choose. Instead God arbitrarily decides life or death for each person and lets that person know at the time of the Judgement how God decided to choose for him.

Yeah, I suppose you could get that from reading Deut 30:19.... but only if you read it through Calvin colored glasses.

[JesseShurun]

Paul had no excuse for his actions, as he was taught better, same as a Christian who gets up from Wednesday night prayer and decides to kill Muslims. That is not God's will for either.

Again, her question is moot: man cannot choose God

[Dr. Eckleburg]

evil...is outside of God.

God does not possess evil.

But nothing is outside of God; God created everything -- including all voids, all evils, all sin, all light and darkness, all pain, all pleasure; all purpose, all taxes, all bruises, all saxophones, all pity, all promises, all goodness, all people, all places, all things.

Or else He isn't God.

IMO, through Scripture and God-given grace and logic, all understanding flows from this awareness of God's enormity.

[JesseShurun]

If Paul had been righteous,he could have just as easily asked God to reveal the truth of Christianity to him before he joined the stoning crowd, and as God did purpose to use him as an apostle, Paul could have avoided the sin of murder. God did not need Paul's sins to accomplish his purposes.

[JesseShurun]

No, to be cast into the outer darkness will be to be where God is not. Again, it's a state of being, there is no God there

[JesseShurun]

(just as there is not a little speck of God in each and everyone of us. No HS inside of you, there is a place where God is not. It may exist, God created it, but He is not in attendance

[Gamecock]

He chose to sin, killing men, women and children,telling himself that he was doing God's will, but he knew the ten commandments, he knew everything in the Hebrew bible

As a Pharisee's Pharisee, he thought he was doing God's work. Remember, the Torah had strict penalties for worshiping false gods. He did not even realize he was sinning, he thought he was righteous by his deeds. (We've read the story, so of course we know better)

Only when his sin was exposed to his heart did he realize what he was doing. Calvinists will say that is the same way it works in all Christians.

Now, when you read the story of Paul's conversion, deep in your heart, do you think he really had a free will? God in heaven speaks directly to him, blinds him, and he is terrified! Right away he sees that he is a sinner.

Not convinced? What about Jonah? Don't do God's will and you get eaten by a great fish until you repent and agree to do what God says. No free will in that story.

Still don't buy into it? Reread the 6th chapter of Isaiah and look at the fear God will put into the prophet's heart someone's heart! When God exposes our sin thought the Holy Spirit, we are also undone and realize that God wants us!

His message is so compelling that we thirst after it, just like water on a hot day. If we reject either one we are dead! Drinking water is free will, but how many will turn it down walking through the desert? God's Word is water for our soul. We will not turn it down!

[JesseShurun]

Again, Paul knew the ten commandments, so he knew killing was a sin. God does not need our sins. That's man's arrogance talking now

[P-Marlowe]

God does not possess evil.

God created it, but he does not possess it? That's really stupid. What, did he pass the ball? If he doesn't posess that which he created, then he is not God. The same logic can be used against your argument.

Why do you guys insist on placing the blame for evil directly on a God who is proclaimed as good and who deplores evil

Frankly I am quite amazed at the direction this discussion has gone. To suggest that God is the creator and author of all that is evil in the universe is twisted at best. If you believe in such a God, then I would have to number you among the [FR 5th Amendment]s as those who do not believe in the same God that I worship.

Sorry.

[drstevej]

Notice how in the absence of a certain [FR 5th Amnedment] actual theological discussion has returned to Free Republic.

[JesseShurun]

Yes, hallelujah! )Fun isn't it, and no Kathy Lee GIFfords

[so_real]

So God tricks himself into restricting His total knowledge and just focuses on partial knowledge, keeping the best for last?

Yes! That's it! Well, that's almost it. I don't know about keeping the best for last. It's just my opinion, but I rather think God enjoys the trip as much as the end of the journey. Just like parents on Earth, it's fun to hold out your hands and help your child take his first steps, not knowing if he'll be football player, or gymnist, or what-have-you.

As far as restricting His total knowledge, there is Biblical precedent for it.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

And also, with credit to Seven_0 and RnMomof7 for posts 338 and 342, we know that God is also capable of un-remembering

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Isa 43:25 I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

In fact, there is nothing He is incapable of.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

With Biblical precedent, it's not a far stretch to suspect that God is aware of what He wants to be aware of, when He wants to be aware of it. If so, there is no paradox. There are none created unredeemable. No one can claim to hold God accountable for their damnation. And "squishy" Bible verses like Luke 12:35-48 become more clear.

And also, Matthew 12 verses 36 and 37: "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

If God has predetermined our judgement, He must also have predetermined our words. If He condemns us by our words, and our words are predetermined by Him, what is He condemning really?

[P-Marlowe]

Its starting to get a little tense in here doc. But we have gone nearly 500 posts without a moderator pulling a post or yanking the thread. That alone is an acheivement.

[Law]

Interesting translation in your tagline.

The excerpt is from the new English Standard Version. It's remarkably accurate and clear without being dumbed down. Highly recommended.

[drstevej]

Tense is fine. The issues are not trivial. But I haven't seen a war of ***'s

[P-Marlowe]

You are correct. Evil is what exists outside of God. If there were no God there would be only darkness and evil. God did not create the darkness, he created the light. He said let there be light. He did not have to first say "let there be darkness." Just as Darkness leaves when the light is turned on, so evil departs when God makes his appearance.

These guys that suggest that God is the creator of evil are clearly bordering on blasphemy. And if they're not, then I am. Somebody's in trouble here. That's for sure.

[so_real]

I believe that God chooses man, that man can never find God on his own, thus the hopelessness of man-centered religions.

I agree with you. Everyone's name is written in the Book of Life first and then blotted out as necessary. The Holy Spirit reaches out to everyone and the only unforgivable sin is to try to prevent this. (But I'd still say that even though God chose man first, it's still man's calling to choose God in return ;-)