Posted on 04/19/2003 7:32:39 AM PDT by drstevej
So it's a man-centered, man-determined salvation you're postulating once again. There's no other way to see it. The decision is all up to man.
And you are no more fallen than Paul was, Marlowe.
God created Paul to kill Christians, and then He turned Paul's heart from hatred and brought him to glory.
God does the same for all whom He chooses.
Not the other way around.
So God tricks himself into restricting His total knowledge and just focuses on partial knowledge, keeping the best for last?
I don't think God works that way. It's all-or-nothing. He's either God and He knows ALL, or He's not God.
The "elect" refers to those whom God already knows (thanks to His perfect knowledge) will sit with Him in heaven. And since God created everyone and everything, He knows just what He's doing and where everyone will end up.
I think that's logical, and I think you're almost a Calvinist. 8~)
No.
God created free-will, which carries with it the potential for evil. "Evil" or in this contextm "sin," is direct rebellion against God. Thus God cannot create "Evil" in that sense any more than God can make a rock so big that he cannot move it. There are some things that God cannot do because it is either against his word, or it is logically impossible.
It is impossible for God to sin or to create sin since sin only occurs when someone acts in direct violation of the express will of God. So if someone is doing what God intended and willed and compelled him to do, even if it is "evil" then the action is not sin since it is done in accordance with God's will.
The Bible does mention that God does "evil". But in that context it is clear that what it means is that God brings destruction on his creation. But it is not "evil" when God does it, it is just and is in full accordance with his laws and his word.
So, when Lucifer sinned, did he sin because he exercised his free will to sin against God, or did God compel him to sin in order that some hidden purpose of God could be accomplished that could not have been accomplished without Lucifer sinning?
I vote for the former.
But some prefer not to ask the hard questions.
Just so that we can get this straight, you believe that God compelled Paul to commit murder. Correct?
Paul was doing what God had intended for him to do, what he had created him to do, what was good and glorious in God's eyes, when Paul was murdering Christians. Right?
In essence it was a good and wonderful work that Paul was doing when he was murdering Christians. Correct?
Is that it? Have I been properly enlightened with the truth of the Gospel now?
Or are you having a bit of trouble enunciating the correct position?
Corin, don't start that. We're all having a nice discussion without bringing in attitude accusations.
Everyone here has "attitude." But it stops the discussion cold to throw around those kind of remarks.
See, I have attitude, too. It's part of our mutual Total Depravity. 8~)
Yep, that's exactly where your faulty logic takes you.
Powerful man; inept God; ineffectual grace.
"...No one seeks for God." [Romans 3:11]
Still you trot out this graying canard, endlessly chuckling at your three-syllable knee-slapper.
"God's secret will" refers to the knowledge known by God and not by you or me.
Unless perhaps you think you know everything God knows. In which case, remember what happened to John Nash.
God created Paul to kill Christians so that when God finally brought him to his knees in gratitude and devotion, we might all look upon Paul and say, "If God can work such miracles in one so vile, God can save a wretch like me."
Paul is the perfect testament to God's transforming grace. We should all be so blessed to be such clay.
BTW, not everything God creates is "good and glorious" to our temporal eyes (although everything God creates is part of His perfect will). God creates storms, earthquakes, avalanches, and pimples.
I have no trouble enunciating this position. On the contrary, it's liberating when you finally realize all the fences you construct around God are of your own making. He's far more enormous than your circuitous contradictions allow.
Overview
Thanks for providing a direct answer to the question, i hate wasting time. Now to your response
God created free-will, which carries with it the potential for evil. "Evil" or in this contextm "sin," is direct rebellion against God. Thus God cannot create "Evil" in that sense any more than God can make a rock so big that he cannot move it. There are some things that God cannot do because it is either against his word, or it is logically impossible.
OBJECTION! Presumes as fact matters not in evidence. i do not find the concept of free will articulated anywhere in the passages of scripture, EXCEPT in reference to God. Even if free will can be established for Created beings, it must then be established that free will is an immutable attribute of the created being.
This leads to yet another problem: If God forknew Satan's rebellion, why did He then continue with the determination to create a being who is determined to bring corruption and death to a creation that God says is "very good", requiring the ultimate destruction of that creation (II Peter 3:10)?If God went ahead with the creation of Lucifer, knowing the outcome, then God must be ultimately responsible for evil. Lucifer cannot make a choice if the option does not exist...created by who?
Surely you will say to me something along the lines of "God did not make robots.", to which i reply why not? Even we make robots capable of choice? This does not prove free will.
It is impossible for God to sin or to create sin since sin only occurs when someone acts in direct violation of the express will of God. So if someone is doing what God intended and willed and compelled him to do, even if it is "evil" then the action is not sin since it is done in accordance with God's will.
Here i fear that you have made a contradiction, round about for certain, but a contradiction none the less. IF God has perfect foreknowlege of all things, including the possible contingincies (forgive the spelling!) THEN He, in going ahead with that particular creation, is the ultimate cause of evil and sin. This, as you have stated above is impossible, therefore the God you describe is impossible, and cannot exist.
The Bible does mention that God does "evil". But in that context it is clear that what it means is that God brings destruction on his creation. But it is not "evil" when God does it, it is just and is in full accordance with his laws and his word.
So then, God is NOT holding His Own Character to the same standard of Justice that He holds His Creation? Then it would appear that THE GOD WHO DOES NOT CHANGE is also not true. Again, that God does not exist if scripture be correct.
So, when Lucifer sinned, did he sin because he exercised his free will to sin against God, or did God compel him to sin in order that some hidden purpose of God could be accomplished that could not have been accomplished without Lucifer sinning?
Once again Counciller, you are entering matters not in evidence as if they were fact.
So, in the spirit of grace, i ask again, did God create evil, yes or no?
Should I repeat the questions?
And Satan did not surprise God.
All word games aside, God cannot be surprised.
Even on wild men God endowed a conscience so that they know right and wrong. Before the incarnation of Christ, if they did not have God's revelation, they are judged on their ability to do as their inner voice directed regarding the right things to do.
Now, is it man choosing God that is the issue here or something else? Isn't it man choosing to do the will of God, either do, as he is instructed through revelation, or what his conscience says to do? "Choose this day whom you will serve, God or mammon." Why would we be told to choose, if we were incapable of it? Even Cain would have done good if he had just offered the sacrifice in the method God prescribed.
The sun shines on the just and the unjust alike. If the Bushman has never heard of Christ, yet does only good to others, he is following the Law placed in his heart. If he thieves and kills and lies, he does not and he faces a judgment more severe than if he was a moral man.
Choosing to be obedient to God, is not the same as "choosing God."
OBJECTION OVERRULLED! The concept of free will permeates the Bible, unless God is disengenuous when he demands things from his creation and provides them with no ability to meet that demand.
I will give you one verse that clearly demonstrates that God intends man to make up his own mind in regard to his dealings with God:
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
The choice is there. God has surrendered to man the freewill to respond, to choose betwen life and death, blessing or cursing and he has given man the adivce to Choose life.
IF God has perfect foreknowlege of all things, including the possible contingincies (forgive the spelling!) THEN He, in going ahead with that particular creation, is the ultimate cause of evil and sin. What God created was good. When God gave to his creation the free will to choose life or to choose death, to love God or rebel against him, it was good. Now your saying that because the potential for evil exists within something good, that the creator of that good actually created something evil. That is a logical fallacy. It is the same as saying that because A follows B, that A necessarily caused B. Thus even though evil followed God's creation, it does not follow that God created evil. Evil was created by those who chose to exercise their God-Given free-will to rebel against their Creator.
Thus while it is true that Evil came about by the creation of something good, it cannot be said that the intent of the creator was to create evil. Morphine is good if you are in pain, it is evil if it is used improperly. The person who discovered Morphine created Morphine. Morphine was intended to alleviate pain and in that sense it is good. It, like all of God's creation, is subject to misuse. God is not responsible for the misuse of that which is Good, unless God actually causes the misuse. I don't believe god makes men sin. I therefore don't believe that God created evil. Unless you can claim that God really really really wants men to sin against him, then you can't claim that God created evil. And if you wish to claim that God is like that, then God not only created evil, but God IS evil.
Now since I have overrulled your objection you need to give me an answer --- or take the 5th.
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