Replies

How about I teach my kids the faith, and you do the same, OK?

That's not the way it's supposed to work. That's Protestantism, not the Catholic Faith. The Catholic faith should be the same for every country, every parish, every family. Now there's hardly 2 parishes that believe the same and worship the same. Not to speak of families.

Of course, as you say, each father has a responsibility to be the spiritual head of his family. But the faith that we should be teaching our children should be the same faith, the same belief, the same worship.

Nobody at a Latin Mass is a a sinner? Is that what you are saying?

I'm sure you're aware that I did not say any such thing. What I said was that it's presumptious to ignore known dangers. People die from accidents all the time, but those who are walking along the edge of a cliff are taking a much greater risk. As the original writer to EWTN said, the New Mass is a known danger to the faith of children. This is a fact as demonstrated by mountains of data.

Yes. What is your point? That the Church lacks the authority to change the texts of Her own liturgy?

Since you are willing to agree that not one single prayer of the traditional Catholic Mass remains untouched in the New Mass, then you must at least stop and consider whether it is true that they are "the same Mass." Catholic philosophy has always been consistent with human reason. Two things that are utterly different cannot be the same. If the New Mass is in fact NOT the same as the traditional Catholic Mass, then what kind of service are you attending?

How about I teach my kids the faith, and you do the same, OK?

That's not the way it's supposed to work. That's Protestantism, not the Catholic Faith.

You misunderstand me.

The Catholic faith should be the same for every country, every parish, every family. Now there's hardly 2 parishes that believe the same and worship the same. Not to speak of families.

Of course, as you say, each father has a responsibility to be the spiritual head of his family. But the faith that we should be teaching our children should be the same faith, the same belief, the same worship.

You are under the impression that I don't agree? This is the problem. I see hwo you are doing what you think is best for your family. But you can't see that I am tryign to pass on the same faith. Except that my priest faces one direction and yours the other, so I must have a different faith? Please. Recognize the ally you have in the conservative Catholic who would prefer a proper NO Mass.

As was indicated above, that would include the ordinary responses in Latin, and the teaching and readings in English. Not clown Masses, no dancing girls. Just the Mass as Vatican II envisioned.

What I said was that it's presumptious to ignore known dangers. People die from accidents all the time, but those who are walking along the edge of a cliff are taking a much greater risk.

Says the schismatic.

As the original writer to EWTN said, the New Mass is a known danger to the faith of children. This is a fact as demonstrated by mountains of data.

And the dangers of schism aren't writ large as well?

Since you are willing to agree that not one single prayer of the traditional Catholic Mass remains untouched in the New Mass, then you must at least stop and consider whether it is true that they are "the same Mass."

I have conceded the point, for the time being. I have not studied to see if "every" prayer is different, but will grant you this for the debate.

I don't recall sayign they were "the same MaAss." The NO is a valid Mass, and inasmuch as any Mass is a participation in the One Sacrifice, then they are "the same."

But in general, they are both Masses. As similar as they are different. An Eastern Rite Mass is not the Tridentine either, but it is still a valid Mass.

Catholic philosophy has always been consistent with human reason. Two things that are utterly different cannot be the same.

Where did "utterly different" come from? In no way has that been shown. A validly ordained priest says the words of consecration over valid matter. The sacrament is valid.

If the New Mass is in fact NOT the same as the traditional Catholic Mass, then what kind of service are you attending?

Maybe a Mass accrding to the New Rite? The words and gestures and prayers are not all the same, but it is still a valid Mass. That is the point. Can you concede that?

SD

If the New Mass is in fact NOT the same as the traditional Catholic Mass, then what kind of service are you attending?

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Tour of the New Mass

The Mass is made of two main parts:

the Liturgy of the Word; and
the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

The Entrance

Mass begins with the entrance of the Priest. On Sundays and Feast Days, an entrance hymn will be sung. Otherwise, a short passage (usually from Scripture) is recited called the "Entrance Antiphon".

Being our greatest prayer, the Mass begins by making the Sign of the Cross (the traditional way that Catholics "bless themselves" and begin and conclude "formal" prayers).

The Penitential Rite

The Priest greets the people and invites everyone to reflect briefly on their unworthiness and sinfulness to prepare for the celebration of the Mass. The People may recite the "Confiteor":

I confess to Almighty God,
and to you here present,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
["mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa"]
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do.
And I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you here present
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

The Priest then leads the "Kyrie" -- "Lord have mercy", "Christ have mercy", "Lord have mercy" -- before giving a general absolution to prepare the People for reception of the Blessed Sacrament. (This does not apply to people in a state of Mortal Sin who must first receive absolution within the Sacrament of Penance before approaching the Blessed Sacrament.)

There is an then an opening prayer recited by the Priest. The prayers and the various readings chosen for the particular Mass follow a particular "theme".

The Liturgy of the Word

First, a passage from the Old Testament, the Acts of the Apostles or the Book of Revelation is read.

This is followed either by the singing or recitation of one of the Psalms. Usually a lector or cantor will recite or sing a verse, to which the People will respond with an antiphon from the Psalm.

Then, a passage from one of the Epistles (the New Testament "Letters") is read as the Second Reading.

At feria (weekday) Masses, only one reading and Psalm occurs. At some Masses, additional readings are also given -- at the Easter Vigil, the most important Mass of the year, celebrating the Resurrection, there can be up to 15 readings!

The First and Second Readings and Psalm are usually read by lay people, most properly by Lectors, lay people who have been formally commissioned to read the Readings in their parish.

The Readings are then followed by the Gospel Acclamation -- a great "Alleluia!" by the People welcoming the Word. The People stand for the Gospel Acclamation and remain standing while a Priest or Deacon reads a passage from the Gospel. On particularly special occasions, the Priest may chant the Gospel.

At the conclusion of the Gospel, the People sit to listen to the Priest's "Homily", a reflection on the various readings and their application to our lives.

Following the homily and a short time to reflect quietly on what Father has said, the People stand to rectie the Creed. Catholics, as do all Christians, recite together this formulation of our Faith.

Following the Creed, the People place the needs of the world before our Father in Heaven in the "General Intercessions" or "Prayers of the Faithful". A Lector will usually read a short intercession which the People make their own by responding, "Lord, Hear our Prayer". These prayers usually pray for the Pope and the Church, the Leaders of our Nation, for an increase in vocations to the priesthood, for those in difficulties, for the sick and infirm (especially those from the particular parish), for the dead.

This concludes the first part of the Mass.

The Offertory Rites

Some members of the congregation (quite often children or a family) then take up the "gifts": the candles that will sit on the altar to signal the presence of Christ, our Light, the bread which will beome the Body of Christ and the Wine which will become His Blood.

This is also when the first Collection is taken. The People are invited to give an offering which is forwarded to the Bishop or Archbishop to be used for the purposes of the Diocese.

The Liturgy of the Eucharist

The Priest receives these gifts and says a blessing over them, offering them to God, the work and fruit of our hands, highlighting the great mystery that God will take food and drink we have made and transform them into a Heavenly Meal, the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus.

After blessing the gifts, the Priest prays that God will cleanse him of all iniquity and symbolically washes his fingers which will touch the Lord.

The People then pray that God will accept the Priest's Sacrifice "for the Praise and Glory of His Name, for our good and the good of all His Church".

The Mass has its beginning in the Last Supper when Our Lord first changed bread and wine into His Body and Blood. But it also has its links in the great events of Good Friday. Each Mass is a continuation and a re-offering of Christ's sacrifice on Calvary. It takes the holocausts and burnt, bloody sacrifices of the Old Testament and transforms them into the Holy Sacrifice of the Lamb of God that redeemed all mankind.

After the Priest recites a short prayer of praise to God -- the "Preface" -- the People sing the Heavenly Chant of the "Sanctus" "with all the Angels and Saints":

Holy, Holy, Holy Lord,
God of Power and Might,
Heaven and Earth are full of Your glory
Hosanna in the Highest!
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord
Hosanna in the Highest!

The People then kneel in readiness for the moment when Jesus will become truly, physcically present on the altar.

The Priest begins to pray a great prayer of thanksgiving and supplication to God called the "Eucharistic Prayer". There are a number of Eucharistic Prayers for the Priest to choose from:

The First Eucharistic Prayer is a translation of the Canon. The Canon was the only Eucharistic Prayer that was said in the Latin Rite from the time of the Counter-Reformation until Vatican II. It is rich in the history of the People of God, it calls on our Jewish heritage, it reminds us of our Heavenly goal, it calls on each of the Apostles and the Saints and the Martyrs of the Early Church, each by name, to intercede for us. (It is my personal favourite!)
The Second Eucharistic Prayer (one of the new ones introduced by Pope Paul VI after Vatican II) is based on the Eucharistic Prayers in use in the very early Church. It is beautiful in its simplicity and many appreciate how it links us to the prayer of the early Church. Many also appreciate that it is so much shorter than the others! (It is certainly the most often used, the "default" Eucharistic Prayer, if you like!)
The Third Eucharistic Prayer draws greatly on the liturgical traditions and imagery of the Eastern Church.
There is also a Fourth Eucharistic Prayer and a number written especially for Masses with Children.

The common elements of the Eucharistic Prayers are:

The Consecration -- the moment when the Priest transforms the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Our Lord by repeating the words of consecration:
This is my Body (hic est enim corpus meum)
This is the cup of my Blood (hoc est calix sanguinis meus)
Prayer for the Church
Prayer for the Pope, the local Ordinary (Bishop), all priests and all the Faithful
Prayer for the Faithful Departed (those Faithful who have died)
Invocation of the Blessed Virgin, the Apostles and the Saints
Finally, the Doxology of Praise by the Priest followed by the People's "Great Amen":
Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honour are Yours, Almighty Father, for ever and ever. Amen.

The People then stand to say the Lord's Prayer together and to share the Kiss of Peace with each other (usually a handshake or a nod of the head!)

The Priest then breaks the Body of Christ while the People pray, "Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us." (Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis).

The Priest then invites us again to acknowledge our unworthiness in the "Domine, non sum dignus":

"Lord, I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word, and I shall be healed."

The Priest then eats and drinks the Body and Blood of the Lord before proceeding to distribute the Sacrament to each of the People in turn who wish and are able to receive communion.

This is the great pinnacle of the Mass, of the Christian Life, of the Church, the moment when Jesus, truly present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, enters into our very being, our bodies and souls, making us one together with Him and with each other, cleaving us to His Mystical Body, the Church.

Needless to say, a few moments' quiet refletion and then a song of great joy and praise follow this blessed moment!

At this stage, a second collection is usually taken. The proceeds of this collection are for the needs of the parish (maintenance of the Church buildings, paying for the electricity, funds for the Parish School, etc.) and to provide for the priests.

After consuming any remaining Precious Blood and placing any remaining hosts in the Tabernacle, the Priest cleans and purifies the sacred vessels and then sits quietly for a time in reflection and thanksgiving.

The concluding rites

Finally, the Priest blesses the People and "dismisses" them "The Mass is ended! Go in Peace to love and serve the Lord!" He sends us out into the World to take Christ with us in our hearts and make Him known to whoever we meet. The Priest then proceeds out of the Church while the People sing a final hymn.

"How about I teach my kids the faith, and you do the same, OK?"

"That's not the way it's supposed to work.That's Protestantism, not the Catholic Faith."

CCC #2221

The role of parents in education is of such importance that it is almost impossible to provide an adequate substitute. The right and duty of parents to educate their children are primordial and inalienable.

Been reading through the exchange between you two and thought I'd weigh in with my opinion -- anecdotal observation is more like it, actually.

I grew up post-Vat II. Dad converted to marry Mom. Mom grew up practicing, but uninformed Catholic (she practiced, but didn't know much apologetics about her faith). Consequently, the extent of my parents' efforts to educate me on the faith was weekly Mass and Holy Days, and CCD. During Mass, my Dad would make sure I followed along in the Missal, paid attention, and didn't goof off. Never encouraged me to go to Confession, never talked to me about what was going on in the Mass, never discussed reasons behind the faith.

I never knew that the Eucharist was the literal body and blood of Christ. Oh sure, I heard the words of the priest, but I grew up thinking it was a metaphor, not to be taken literally. My favorite part of the Mass was the "kiss of peace" and later on (late 80s) when our church began to "hold hands" during the "our Father." Likewise, I thought Confession was optional (silent prayers for forgiveness from God were good enough, all the time), mortal sin was murder and cheating on your spouse (for those who aren't married, I thought everything EXCEPT actual intercourse was OK, as long as you were "in love"). Had no CLUE what infallibility was -- but if you had told me, I would have thought it was a silly notion, and that for anyone, going by the Bible alone was A-OK.

Couldn't figure out why my Mom was so worked up when I decided to leave the Church my senior year in high school. Looking back, I can see more clearly -- she KNEW there was something awful about willfully leaving the Faith, but she couldn't articulate WHY, because she herself was not well-versed enough in catechetics to be able to explain it to me.

Dabbled in born-again Christianity for a few years, midway thru college met some informed Catholics, and realized the error of what I was doing. Returned to the Church, got fanatical about learning apologetics and Church history. Stumbled across the term "Tridentine Mass", and discovered that the Mass I had known all my life, and the Mass I had assumed had been the one since apostolic times, was actually created (using the word "created" in a non-pejorative sense; I know it's valid and legitimate), and that actually the Tridentine Mass dated back to much farther back in Church history. So on a lark, I attended a Tridentine Rite Mass and loved it.

Continued to attend the Tridentine, knowing absolutely ZERO latin when I started. Just kept my nose in the missal the first few weeks, but after about 3 or 4 Masses, I was retaining more and more, so that I could look up...Worked hard at it, and after a month or 2, I was feeling much more "connected" to what was going on in the Mass than I ever did in the NO. It felt richer; more timeless; holier.

My opinion is that there is an inherent function of the Tridentine that preserves the notion of holiness and sanctity of the Eucharist that is not INHERENT in the NO. I agree w/ SD that the NO should be performed in a manner in which is intended, which translates that sense of holiness and sanctity to the congregation --- but I think that it is not INHERENT. It's obvious that it's not inherent in the NO (because if it was INHERENT, then all NO's would translate that sense of holiness and sanctity to the congregation -- but there are at least some -- many, in some people's opinion -- that do not). I would argue that it is inherent in the Tridentine -- but I guess if you were able to show an example of a Tridentine Rite mass where it wasn't true, that would blow that argument out of the water (i.e. - a clown Tridentine Rite Mass, or belly dancing through the Pater Noster).

I know that it's possible for the NO to convey the same sense as what I've experienced w/ the Tridentine. I haven't experienced it in the NO very many times, but I recall attending a Latin NO in Southern Calif. at a monastery a few times that fit the bill.