WHEN THE POPE KISSED THE KORAN

TCR News ^ | Stephen Hand

[Jael]

Colleen, I don't claim the reformers. The daughters didn't fall far from the mother, since the prots still practice the heresy of infant baptism.

I am talking about Christians. I am talking about original source documents. I'm well versed on the issue and would recommend that you read the following books.

Braght, Thieleman Janszoon van (1625-1664). The Bloody Theater or Martyrs Mirror of the Defenseless Christians Who Baptized Only upon Confession of Faith, and Who Suffered and Died for the Testimony of Jesus, Their Saviour, from the Time of Christ to the Year A.D. 1600. Trans. From Dutch by Joseph F. Sohm. Scottdale, Penn.: Herald Press, 3rd English edition 1886. 1157 p.

Clark, Henry William (1869- ). History of English Nonconformity from Wiclif to the Close of the Nineteenth Century. 2 vol. London: Chapman and Hall, 1911-13.

÷÷÷. Remarks upon the Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of the Albigenses. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1821 edition, first published in 1692. 282 p.

Arnaud, DâHenri. Authentic Details of the Valdenses, in Piemont and Other Countries; with abridged translations of "LâHistoire Des Vaudois," [The History of the Vaudois] Par Bresse [by J. Bresse], and La Rentree Glorieuse des Vaudois dans leur Vallees, DâHenri Arnaud, with a Sketch of the Life of Henri Arnaud, a Sketch of the German Valdenses, and the Ancient Valdensian Catechism and Confession. London: John Hatchard and Son, 1827. 464 p.

÷÷÷. History of the Donatists. Pawtucket, RI: Nickerson, 1875. 212 p.

Bennett, James (1774-1862). The Theology of the Early Christian Church: exhibited in quotations from the writers of the first three centuries. London: Jackson and Walford, 1855.

Bingham, Joseph (1668-1723). The Antiquities of the Christian Church, and other works; with the quotations at length, in the original languages, and a biographical account of the author. London: W. Straker, 1843-1834.

Bogue, Robert H. The Dawn of Christianity: The Essene Heritage. New York: Vantage Press, c. 1986.

Bostick, Curtis V. The Antichrist and the Lollards: apocalypticism in late medieval and Reformation England. Leiden, Boston: Brill, c. 1998.

Comba, Emilio (1839-1904). History of the Waldenses of Italy: from their origin to the Reformation. Trans. By Teofilo E. Comba. London: Truslove and Shirley, 1889. 357 p.

Faber, George Stanley. The History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses. London: R.B. Seeley and W. Burnside, 1838. 596 p.

Flecker, W.H. British Church History to A.D. 1000. London: G. Bell and Sons, 1913. 157 p.

[ET(end tyranny)]

If all, are already condemned why tell people to DO works??? And why bother looking in the book, if no names are going to be there since all are condemned?

The text also says:

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Don't just think something, DO IT! ACTIONS speak louder than words. Show your love for God by DOING deeds that are in keeping with his works. Overcome sin, overcome bad... DO good. Leave the darkness of evil and walk as a child of the light. Take responsibility for your actions.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Get rid of the evil deeds-works. Act in a manner befitting children of the light.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Ephesians 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

ACTIONS-DEEDS-WORKS-BEHAVIOR

It seems we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Jael]

Ishmaels daughter married Esau. So those two have some heavy prophecies of doom upon them for what they have done to Israel.

Read Obdaiah. The end is not pretty for Islam.

[Jael]

"Can't we all just get along."

Sadly, that will be the rallying cry of the Antichrist as he seeks to bring all religions together as one. (I know you know that. ) :-)

[Jael]

I take great comfort in knowing that when my salvation is perfected at the Final Judgment, I will be be judged by how I've treated others, not whether I knew God's name, his nature, or even his existence:

Could you provide Scripture to back that up? That verse doesn't say anything about Salvation. Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, not through any work at all that you do.

Acts 4:10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11  This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Reverse your post, because you can have faith and not the works. That is why James said that faith without works is dead, and that he would show you his faith BY HIS WORKS. If you DO THE WORKS the faith is there with it. You can have faith and not do the works, leaving it empty.

In other words. Through your works your faith will shine through.

I have to leave for a while but will be back later.

[Jael]

John 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Acts 4:10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11  This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

[Jael]

Note that the works always come AFTER salvation by grace, through faith. Works never buy or earn salvation, not could they, as the Bible says.

Yes, the works of a born again believer will be judged. What ever was not done for Christ will be burnt, and no reward given.

But the works of the unsaved never even get that. They go straight to Hell, no matter what their works are.

[eastsider]

Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, not through any work at all that you do.

No argument here. Jesus is the judge, and he judges us according to our works.

[Jael]

Not for your salvation, your eternal life. That is only bought by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Yours works in regards to your salvation are nothing but filthy rags.

[Quester]

The Book of Life contains the names of those who have been given (not earned) eternal life by the Son.

These are they which have responded to JESUS' invitation to ...

Come unto Me ... (Matthew 11:28)

When we come to Him, JESUS remakes us such that we become the children of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Having come unto JESUS, and become one of His ... He does, ... indeed, ... send us out into the world to do good works, ... that others might see our good works, ... and come to know God for themselves.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

[Jael]

In regards to Salvation, the only Judge is the Word of God, and whether or not you have received what it says of Jesus, that ye must be born again.

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


And your works in regard to salvation are not worthy to even claim before a Holy God. His Son died to buy the pardon from sin, and you shouldn't say that some feeble works you can do could ever earn what Christ has already done. If you could of earned it, he would of died in vain.


Isaiah 64:6  ¶But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

[eastsider]

Jesus is the judge, and he judges us according to our works.

Not for your salvation, your eternal life.

I don't understand the distinction between salvation and eternal life.

[Quester]

It is not quite reversible.

We must not neglect to acknowledge the order in which faith and works occur.

Faith in God produces godly works.

First faith ... then works.

James says that works are the evidence of a viable faith.

OTOH, ... nowhere does James claim that godly works will produce justifying faith.

Indeed, without faith ... it is impossible to do good works (works pleasing to God).

It is in this way that faith and works go hand in hand.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (no works here)

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (or here)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, (ah, ... here they are) which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

IOW, we are saved ... by God's grace ... through our faith (belief in Him) ... not by works ... but rather, so that we may do the good works ... which God wills that we do.

[eastsider]

The Book of Life contains the names of those who have been given (not earned) eternal life by the Son.

His Son died to buy the pardon from sin, and you shouldn't say that some feeble works you can do could ever earn what Christ has already done.

My apologies if I seemed to be suggesting that one can earn salvation. Perhaps the following will make my meaning clearer.

At the Final Judgment, each man will be judged by God according to whether he has appreciated the talents (grace) God has given to him. (Cf. Mt 25:14-30.) At that judgment, all will be judged guilty in some way, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (cf. Rom3:23).

So who will stand the day of his judgment? (Cf. Mal3:2)? The ones on whom God will have mercy (cf. Rom9:18: “Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy...”).

And to whom will God show his mercy? “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.” (Mat5:7) God will show his mercy on the merciful.

And how is a man merciful? By being merciful to his neighbor:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

He answered: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Thjen he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” (Lk10:25-37; NIV)

Ultimately, then, according to scripture, God will judge and have mercy on a man based on the mercy that man has shown his neighbor. And how much mercy will God show the man? "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Lk6:38; NIV)

Now, in order for a man to be judged guilty of any accusation, justice demands that the man have been able to do the thing he is accused of. So, if God has not given a man the grace (the mercy) to show mercy to his neighbor and yet God should find the man guilty, then God would merely be judging the man guilty of His own withholding of grace (mercy). IOW, God would be judging the man after death by the mercy He had shown the man during life. But as demonstrated above, God does not judge a man by the mercy He has shown the man, but by the mercy the man has shown his neighbor. Therefore, the one talent or grace that God must have given each man in order that his judgment be just -- that is, that justice be served at the judgment -- is the grace to be merciful to his neighbor.

Conclusion: Each man will be judged according to how mercifully he has treated others.

[Technogeeb]

Does (in your opinion) the worship of a lone creator deity (or a deity that you believe is the lone creator deity) mean that you are worshipping the one true God?

No.

Ok, so we agree that monotheism itself is not sufficient, and it would seem a corollary that we can also agree that there are "false" gods (those being worshipped as the lone creator deity who are not actually that deity).

Would you agree that now the issue comes down to whether or not Allah (the god of Islam) and Yehweh (the God of the Jews) are/are not the same Entity?

[Quester]

From your post ...

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

He answered: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

You seem to be approaching this only as it pertains to loving your neighbor.

What about loving God (with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength) ?

How can you love God if you do not acknowledge who He truly is. How can you love God, while, simultaneously, ignoring all that He has given to us so that we might know Him ?

God says that you cannot ... much like your spouse might say if you ignored them all the time.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[eastsider]

What about loving God (with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength)?

"I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." (Mt25:40)

[Quester]

"I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." (Matthew 25:40)

Yes, but you just can't ignore everything else God says about loving Him ...

... any more than I can say to my wife ... "Hey, I bought you a birthday present last year ... isn't that enough ?"

[RnMomof7]

I'm sure the Judge will be amused to learn that his judgment is a charade.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

He has juded us already and we have been found wanting..That is why we need a savior

Rom 2:1   Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

How does God see us?

    Rom 3:10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

     Rom 3:11   There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.   

  Rom 3:12   They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

     Rom 3:13   Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:

     Rom 3:14   Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:

     Rom 3:15   Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:

     Rom 3:16   Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:

     Rom 3:17   And the way of peace have they not known:

     Rom 3:18   There is no fear of God before their eyes.   

  Rom 3:19   Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

     Rom 3:20   Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.      Rom 3:21   But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

     Rom 3:22   Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:   

  Rom 3:23   For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

East we need not think we can do anything that God sees as "good" accept it is him working in us   

  Rom 3:24   Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: