WHEN THE POPE KISSED THE KORAN

TCR News ^ | Stephen Hand

[Quester]

I take great comfort in knowing that when my salvation is perfected at the Final Judgment, I will be be judged by how I've treated others, not whether I knew God's name, his nature, or even his existence:

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

You are willing to base your final destiny on the judgement on how well you have treated others ?

Have you really been so consistently generous in your dealings with others ?

Has the record of your dealings with others been perfect ... without spot nor blemish ? Could it be possible that God would require such perfection from you ?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Can you truly lay claim to such perfection ?

Or ... is, perhaps, your perfection based on something entirely different ?

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

[eastsider]

Not one passage in the NT dealing with the Final Judgment even remotely suggests that men are judged by whether they explicitly acknowledge Jesus as Lord. Not one.

[Quester]

An addendum to post # 161 ...

Really, ... would you rather be judged on your record ... or on His record ?

[eastsider]

My preference has nothing to do with it. I'm merely restating what Scripture says about the judgment.

[RnMomof7]

I take great comfort in knowing that when my salvation is perfected at the Final Judgment, I will be be judged by how I've treated others, not whether I knew God's name, his nature, or even his existence:

That is not what the bible says East..Does the first commandment have any meaning or was God talking to himself? Does He believe there are false gods?

You will not be saved by how you treated people..you will be saved by the cross..the finished work of Christ The only work that counted is the work done by God on the cross..our work is filthy rags to a holy God

[eastsider]

our work is filthy rags to a holy God

I'm sure the Judge will be amused to learn that his judgment is a charade.

[RnMomof7]

You go ahead and tell them about Calvinism and how they are all doomed! doomed! doomed! regardless of what they believe.

Strawman Colleen...great when you have no argument

No Calvinism does not save...Mary does not save, the pope does not save..there is only salvation by the work of Jesus Christ.

I always thought you were a woman of faith..but I now wonder what it is you believe..all gods are equal? all gods save? salvation by good works?

[RnMomof7]

After reading the whole thing, turns out you might be right.

I take back the last post..*grin** I did not want to "fight" about it..I just wanted ya to think it through.. I want them to become Christians..If we pretend that all beliefs are equal we will never have the desire to go into the world! Thanks

[american colleen]

If we pretend that all beliefs are equal we will never have the desire to go into the world!

Strawman, rn. I've never even intimated that I am putting Islam on the same footing with Christianity. I was just sick of this whole thing and posted something deliberately stupid.

[Quester]

Not one passage in the NT dealing with the Final Judgment even remotely suggests that men are judged by whether they explicitly acknowledge Jesus as Lord. Not one.

Judge for yourself ...

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
...
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
...
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And who are these whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life ?

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

[eastsider]

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

...

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Permit me to fill in the elipsis:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev20:11-15 (NIV) (emphasis added))

[ET(end tyranny)]

Do you mean verses like these?

Revelation 2:2
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 2:13
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 2:19
I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. (works is mentioned twice here)

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 3:15
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[eastsider]

In terms of the eschatological judgment, the verses from Revelation 20 are spot on. Thank you.

[Quester]

Permit me to fill in the elipsis:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.

The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev. 20:11-15 (NIV)

Certainly ... but note that, ... regardless of the judgement, ...

... the deciding factor ...

... in each person's final fate (either the lake of fire or not) ...

... is whether or not that person's name was found in the book of life.

[ET(end tyranny)]

.. is whether or not that person's name was found in the book of life.

Based on what is written there, 'according to their works'.!!!

[Quester]

Certainly God will judge our works, ... which (being imperfect) ... would condemn us.

Our works will not save us, ... they can only condemn us.

It is God Who saves us, by the shedding of the blood of His only begotten Son ... and through our belief in Him.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Our works will not save us, ... they can only condemn us.

IF works can only condemn you, then why are we told to DO works????

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

[Quester]

The text says that the books will be opened ... and the Book of Life.

From the books, we will be judged according to our works ... which will condemn us ... as we have all fallen short of God's standard of perfection.

Before us, ... as we stand condemned in our sins, ... the Book of Life will be opened ... so that it may be seen if our names are contained therein (as one who has received God's gift of eternal life).

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If our names are contained therein ... our sins are forgiven and we are not condemned.

OTOH, if our names are not contained therein ... our sins remain, and our condemnation stands.

[Jael]

Colleen, I don't hate anyone. Please do not ever make that henious false claim about me.

The Muslims however do hate the Jews. That should give you pause.

Anyone who is against the Jews is going to have hell to pay for that. God says so.

Maybe you should investigate the covenant that the pope signed with Arafat concerning Jerusalem.

Allah is not Jehovah. Muslims do not worship Jehovah.
The OT has references to THE SON, and the Jews believe the OT. The Muslims do not.

Why do you think Muslims worship Jehovah? They do not.

To me, it's blasphemous to say that Jehovah is who the Muslims worship.

[Quester]

IF works can only condemn you, then why are we told to DO works????

Note that it is only believers (those already saved ... i.e. not condemned) which are commanded to do good works.

It is the will of God that we (believers) do good works ... but, our works do not determine our standing (saved or not) with God.

We are saved to do good works, ... not because of any good works.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Indeed, without faith (belief in God), it is impossible to please Him (do good works).

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.