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George Bush's Theology: Does President Believe He Has Divine Mandate?
Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life ^ | February 12, 2003 | Deborah Caldwell

Posted on 02/12/2003 8:35:27 PM PST by rwfromkansas

In the spring of 1999, as George W. Bush was about to announce his run for President, he agreed to be interviewed about his religious faith -- grudgingly. "I want people to judge me on my deeds, not how I try to define myself as a religious person of words."

It's hard to believe that's the same George W. Bush as now. Since taking office -- and especially in the last weeks -- Bush's personal faith has turned highly public, arguably more so than any modern president. What's important is not that Bush is talking about God but that he's talking about him differently. We are witnessing a shift in Bush's theology – from talking mostly about a Wesleyan theology of "personal transformation" to describing a Calvinist "divine plan" laid out by a sovereign God for the country and himself. This shift has the potential to affect Bush's approach to terrorism, Iraq and his presidency.

On Thursday (Feb.6) at the National Prayer Breakfast, for instance, Bush said, "we can be confident in the ways of Providence. ... Behind all of life and all of history, there's a dedication and purpose, set by the hand of a just and faithful God."

Calvin, whose ideas are critical to contemporary evangelical thought, focused on the idea of a powerful God who governs "the vast machinery of the whole world."

Bush has made several statements indicating he believes God is involved in world events and that he and America have a divinely guided mission:

-- After Bush's Sept. 20, 2001, speech to Congress, Bush speechwriter Mike Gerson called the president and said: "Mr. President, when I saw you on television, I thought -- God wanted you there." "He wants us all here, Gerson," the president responded.

In that speech, Bush said, "Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them." The implication: God will intervene on the world stage, mediating between good and evil.

At the prayer breakfast, during which he talked about God's impact on history, he also said, he felt "the presence of the Almighty" while comforting the families of the shuttle astronauts during the Houston memorial service on Feb. 4.

-- In his State of the Union address last month, Bush said the nation puts its confidence in the loving God "behind all of life, and all of history" and that "we go forward with confidence, because this call of history has come to the right country. May He guide us now."

In addition to these public statements indicating a divine intervention in world events, there is evidence Bush believes his election as president was a result of God's acts.

A month after the World Trade Center attack, World Magazine, a conservative Christian publication, quoted Tim Goeglein, deputy director of White House public liaison, saying, "I think President Bush is God's man at this hour, and I say this with a great sense of humility." Time magazine reported, "Privately, Bush even talked of being chosen by the grace of God to lead at that moment." The net effect is a theology that seems to imply that God is intervening in events, is on America's side, and has chosen Bush to be in the White House at this critical moment.

"All sorts of warning signals ought to go off when a sense of personal chosenness and calling gets translated into a sense of calling and mission for a nation," says Robin Lovin, a United Methodist ethicist and professor of religion and political thought at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. Lovin says what the president seems to be lacking is theological humility and an awareness of moral ambiguity.

Richard Land, a top Southern Baptist leader with close ties to the White House, argues that Bush's sense of divine oversight is part of why he has become such a good wartime leader. He brings a moral clarity and self-confidence that inspires Americans and scares enemies. "We don't inhabit that relativist universe (of European leaders)," Land says. "We really believe some things are good and some things bad."

It's even possible that Bush's belief in America's moral rightness makes the country's military threats seem more genuine because the world thinks Bush is "on a mission."

Presidents have always used Scripture in their speeches as a source of poetry and morality, according to Michael Waldman, President Clinton's chief speechwriter, author of "POTUS Speaks" and now a visiting professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.

Lincoln, he says, was the first president to use the Bible extensively in his speeches, but one of the main reasons was that his audience knew the Bible -- Lincoln was using what was then common language. Theodore Roosevelt, in his 1912 speech to the Progressive Party, closed with these words: "We stand at the edge of Armageddon." Carter, Reagan and Clinton all used Scripture, but Waldman says their use was more as a "grace note."

Bush is different, because he uses theology as the guts of his argument. "That's very unusual in the long sweep of American history," Waldman says.

Bush has clearly seen a divine aspect to his presidency since before he ran. Many Americans know the president had a religious conversion at age 39, when he, as he describes it, "came to the Lord" after a weekend of talks with the Rev. Billy Graham. Within a year, he gave up drinking and joined a men's Bible study group at First United Methodist Church in Midland, Texas. From that point on, he has often said, his Christian faith has grown.

Less well known is that, in 1995, soon after he was elected Texas governor, Bush sent a memo to his staff, asking them to stop by his office to look at a painting entitled "A Charge to Keep" by W.H.D. Koerner, lent to him by Joe O'Neill, a friend from Midland. The painting is based on the Charles Wesley hymn of the same name, and Bush told his staff he especially liked the second verse: "To serve the present age, my calling to fulfill; O may it all my powers engage to do my Master's will." Bush said those words represented their mission. "What adds complete life to the painting for me is the message of Charles Wesley that we serve One greater than ourselves."

By 1999, Bush was saying he believed in a "divine plan that supersedes all human plans." He talked of being inspired to run for president by a sermon delivered by the Rev. Mark Craig, pastor of Bush's Dallas congregation, Highland Park United Methodist Church.

Craig talked about the reluctance of Moses to become a leader. But, said Mr. Craig, then as now, people were "starved for leadership" -- leaders who sacrifice to do the right thing. Bush said the sermon "spoke directly to my heart and talked about a higher calling." But in 1999, as he prepared to run for president, he was quick to add in an interview: "Elections are determined by human beings."

Richard Land recalls being part of a group of about a dozen people who met after Bush's second inauguration as Texas governor in 1999.

At the time, everyone in Texas was talking about Bush's potential to become the next president. During the meeting, Land says, Bush said, "I believe God wants me to be president, but if that doesn't happen, it's OK." Land points out that Bush didn't say that God actually wanted him to be president. He said he believed God wanted him to be president.

During World War II, the American Protestant thinker Reinhold Niebuhr wrote about God's role in political decision-making. He believed every political leader and every political system falls short of absolute justice -- that the Allies didn't represent absolute right and Hitler didn't represent absolute evil because all of us, as humans, stand under the ultimate judgment of God. That doesn't mean politicians can't make judgments based on what they believe is right; it does mean they need to understand that their position isn't absolutely morally clear.

"Sometimes Bush comes close to crossing the line of trying to serve the nation as its religious leader, rather than its political leader," says C. Welton Gaddy, president of the Interfaith Alliance, a clergy-led liberal lobbying group.

Certainly, European leaders seem to be bothered by Bush's rhetoric and it possibly does contribute to a sense in Islamic countries that Bush is on an anti-Islamic "crusade."

Radwan Masmoudi, executive director of the Washington-based Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy, worries about it. "Muslims, all over the world, are very concerned that the war on terrorism is being hijacked by right-wing fundamentalists, and transformed into a war, or at least a conflict, with Islam. President Bush is a man of faith, and that is a positive attribute, but he also needs to learn about and respect the other faiths, including Islam, in order to represent and serve all Americans."

In hindsight, even Bush's inaugural address presaged his emerging theology. He quoted a colonist who wrote to Thomas Jefferson that "We know the race is not to the swift nor the battle to the strong. Do you not think an angel rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm?" Then Bush said: "Much time has passed since Jefferson arrived for his inauguration. The years and changes accumulate, but the themes of this day he would know, `our nation's grand story of courage and its simple dream of dignity.'

"We are not this story's author, who fills time and eternity with his purpose. Yet his purpose is achieved in our duty, and our duty is fulfilled in service to one another. Never tiring, never yielding, never finishing, we renew that purpose today; to make our country more just and generous; to affirm the dignity of our lives and every life.

"This work continues. This story goes on. And an angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm."


TOPICS: Current Events; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: bush; catholiclist; providence; religion
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To: Siobhan
Their Eucharistic doctrine alone is not Calvinistic, much less their doctrinal authority founded in tradition

You are confusing Salvation doctrine with worship...Calvinism is a about salvation not worship..Presbyterians ( as calvinists )believe in the presence of Jesus in communion (spiritually) the Calvinist Baptists believe it is a rememberance

What defines Calvinist is how they look at man in relationship to God...not how they worship

When you read the 39 articles they are Calvinist in salvation theology

741 posted on 02/22/2003 6:02:33 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: sinkspur
A court would say that was a "declaration of war."

Who needs the courts when we have people like you to tell us what the court's would say? So much for separation of powers.

742 posted on 02/22/2003 6:36:32 AM PST by Aloysius
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
You make a serious accusation. Can you support your claims with any proof?

Some people could make the same argument about St. Paul. Some people say the same thing about Christianity in general.

743 posted on 02/22/2003 11:53:12 AM PST by nickcarraway
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To: RnMomof7
You keep redrawing the lines again around the issue... That Calvinists might concur with some part of the 39 Articles was not the issue. Once again, the issue is listing Episcopalians and claiming that they were Calvinists when, in point of fact, they were not. Anglicanism develops as a response against Rome as well as a response against Geneva. Both Catholics and Calvinists can find things in Anglicanism to approve of, but in truth the Anglicans are neither Calvinists nor are they 'Roman'. They are the veritable tertium quid. A sort of ecclesiastical duck-billed platypus. But Calvinists they are not.
744 posted on 02/22/2003 7:06:32 PM PST by Siobhan († Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet †)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Today is the birthday of the man you deem irrelevant:

Washington's Birthday

February 22, 2003

George Washington was commander in chief of the Continental army during the American Revolution and first president of the United States (1789-97).

Early Life and Career.

Born in Westmoreland County, Va., on Feb. 22, 1732, George Washington was the eldest son of Augustine Washington and his second wife, Mary Ball Washington, who were prosperous Virginia gentry of English descent. George spent his early years on the family estate on Pope's Creek along the Potomac River. His early education included the study of such subjects as mathematics, surveying, the classics, and "rules of civility." His father died in 1743, and soon thereafter George went to live with his half brother Lawrence at Mount Vernon,

Lawrence's plantation on the Potomac. Lawrence, who became something of a substitute father for his brother, had married into the Fairfax family, prominent and influential Virginians who helped launch George's career. An early ambition to go to sea had been effectively discouraged by George's mother; instead, he turned to surveying, securing (1748) an appointment to survey Lord Fairfax's lands in the Shenandoah Valley. He helped lay out the Virginia town of Belhaven (now Alexandria) in 1749 and was appointed surveyor for Culpeper County.

George accompanied his brother to Barbados in an effort to cure Lawrence of tuberculosis, but Lawrence died in 1752, soon after the brothers returned. George ultimately inherited the Mount Vernon estate.

By 1753 the growing rivalry between the British and French over control of the Ohio Valley, soon to erupt into the French and Indian War (1754-63), created new opportunities for the ambitious young Washington. He first gained public notice when, as adjutant of one of Virginia's four military districts, he was dispatched (October 1753) by Gov. Robert Dinwiddie on a fruitless mission to warn the French commander at Fort Le Boeuf against further encroachment on territory claimed by Britain. Washington's diary account of the dangers and difficulties of his journey, published at Williamsburg on his return, may have helped win him his ensuing promotion to lieutenant colonel. Although only 22 years of age and lacking experience, he learned quickly, meeting the problems of recruitment, supply, and desertions with a combination of brashness and native ability that earned him the respect of his superiors.

French and Indian War.

In April 1754, on his way to establish a post at the Forks of the Ohio (the current site of Pittsburgh), Washington learned that the French had already erected a fort there. Warned that the French were advancing, he quickly threw up fortifications at Great Meadows, Pa., aptly naming the entrenchment Fort Necessity, and marched to intercept advancing French troops. In the resulting skirmish the French commander the sieur de Jumonville was killed and most of his men were captured. Washington pulled his small force back into Fort Necessity where he was overwhelmed (July 3) by the French in an all-day battle fought in a drenching rain. Surrounded by enemy troops, with his food supply almost exhausted and his dampened ammunition useless, Washington capitulated. Under the terms of the surrender signed that day, he was permitted to march his troops back to Williamsburg.

Discouraged by his defeat and angered by discrimination between British and colonial officers in rank and pay, he resigned his commission near the end of 1754. The next year, however, he volunteered to join British general Edward Braddock's expedition against the French. When Braddock was ambushed by the French and their Indian allies on the Monongahela River, Washington, although seriously ill, tried to rally the Virginia troops. Whatever public criticism attended the debacle, Washington's own military reputation was enhanced, and in 1755, at the age of 23, he was promoted to colonel and appointed commander in chief of the Virginia militia, with responsibility for defending the frontier. In 1758 he took an active part in Gen. John Forbes's successful campaign against Fort Duquesne. From his correspondence during these years, Washington can be seen evolving from a brash, vain, and opinionated young officer, impatient with restraints and given to writing admonitory letters to his superiors, to a mature soldier with a grasp of administration and a firm understanding of how to deal effectively with civil authority.

Virginia Politician.

Assured that the Virginia frontier was safe from French attack, Washington left the army in 1758 and returned to Mount Vernon, directing his attention toward restoring his neglected estate. He erected new buildings, refurnished the house, and experimented with new crops. With the support of an ever-growing circle of influential friends, he entered politics, serving (1759-74) in Virginia's House of Burgesses. In January 1759 he married Martha Dandridge Custis, a wealthy and attractive young widow with two small children. It was to be a happy and satisfying marriage. After 1769, Washington became a leader in Virginia's opposition to Great Britain's colonial policies. At first he hoped for reconciliation with Britain, although some British policies had touched him personally. Discrimination against colonial military officers had rankled deeply, and British land policies and restrictions on western expansion after 1763 had seriously hindered his plans for western land speculation. In addition, he shared the usual planter's dilemma in being continually in debt to his London agents. As a delegate (1774-75) to the First and Second Continental Congress, Washington did not participate actively in the deliberations, but his presence was undoubtedly a stabilizing influence. In June 1775 he was Congress's unanimous choice as commander in chief of the Continental forces.

American Revolution.

Washington took command of the troops surrounding British-occupied Boston on July 3, devoting the next few months to training the undisciplined 14,000-man army and trying to secure urgently needed powder and other supplies. Early in March 1776, using cannon brought down from Ticonderoga by Henry Knox, Washington occupied Dorchester Heights, effectively commanding the city and forcing the British to evacuate on March 17. He then moved to defend New York City against the combined land and sea forces of Sir William Howe.

In New York he committed a military blunder by occupying an untenable position in Brooklyn, although he saved his army by skillfully retreating from Manhattan into Westchester County and through New Jersey into Pennsylvania. In the last months of 1776, desperately short of men and supplies, Washington almost despaired. He had lost New York City to the British; enlistment was almost up for a number of the troops, and others were deserting in droves; civilian morale was falling rapidly; and Congress, faced with the possibility of a British attack on Philadelphia, had withdrawn from the city.

Colonial morale was briefly revived by the capture of Trenton, N.J., a brilliantly conceived attack in which Washington crossed the Delaware River on Christmas night 1776 and surprised the predominantly Hessian garrison. Advancing to Princeton, N.J., he routed the British there on Jan. 3, 1777, but in September and October 1777 he suffered serious reverses in Pennsylvania--at Brandywine and Germantown. The major success of that year--the defeat (October 1777) of the British at Saratoga, N.Y.--had belonged not to Washington but to Benedict Arnold and Horatio Gates. The contrast between Washington's record and Gates's brilliant victory was one factor that led to the so-called Conway Cabal--an intrigue by some members of Congress and army officers to replace Washington with a more successful commander, probably Gates. Washington acted quickly, and the plan eventually collapsed due to lack of public support as well as to Washington's overall superiority to his rivals. After holding his bedraggled and dispirited army together during the difficult winter at Valley Forge, Washington learned that France had recognized American independence. With the aid of the Prussian Baron von Steuben and the French marquis de LaFayette, he concentrated on turning the army into a viable fighting force, and by spring he was ready to take the field again. In June 1778 he attacked the British near Monmouth Courthouse, N.J., on their withdrawal from Philadelphia to New York. Although American general Charles Lee's lack of enterprise ruined Washington's plan to strike a major blow at Sir Henry Clinton's army at Monmouth, the commander in chief's quick action on the field prevented an American defeat.

In 1780 the main theater of the war shifted to the south. Although the campaigns in Virginia and the Carolinas were conducted by other generals, including Nathanael Greene and Daniel Morgan, Washington was still responsible for the overall direction of the war. After the arrival of the French army in 1780 he concentrated on coordinating allied efforts and in 1781 launched, in cooperation with the comte de Rochambeau and the comte d'Estaing, the brilliantly planned and executed Yorktown Campaign against Charles Cornwallis, securing (Oct. 19, 1781) the American victory.

Washington had grown enormously in stature during the war. A man of unquestioned integrity, he began by accepting the advice of more experienced officers such as Gates and Charles Lee, but he quickly learned to trust his own judgment. He sometimes railed at Congress for its failure to supply troops and for the bungling fiscal measures that frustrated his efforts to secure adequate materiel. Gradually, however, he developed what was perhaps his greatest strength in a society suspicious of the military--his ability to deal effectively with civil authority.

Whatever his private opinions, his relations with Congress and with the state governments were exemplary--despite the fact that his wartime powers sometimes amounted to dictatorial authority. On the battlefield Washington relied on a policy of trial and error, eventually becoming a master of improvisation. Often accused of being overly cautious, he could be bold when success seemed possible. He learned to use the short-term militia skillfully and to combine green troops with veterans to produce an efficient fighting force.

Washington's Birthday

745 posted on 02/23/2003 12:17:43 AM PST by nickcarraway
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To: RnMomof7; Siobhan
St. Augustine was a Calvinist? I missed the part in Confessions where he mentioned reading Calvin.
746 posted on 02/23/2003 2:47:56 AM PST by nickcarraway
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To: Siobhan
I consider you a friend Siobhan I have enjoyed our debate..But my friend you are the one that has kept redefining what Calvinist means:>)

Look back at some of the posts..you wanted to make doublepredestination the test..but that is not the test...then you wanted to make Eucharist the test ..but that is not the test..

You are 100% correct that in Anglicanism and in Luthernism there is a mixture of Roman and Calvinist beliefs...What makes a Calvinist is the understanding that man is depraved and can not save himself (Luthers bondage of the will) ..that God is sovereign..that is clearly seen in the 39 articles and it is that belief that would have made them believe in freedom of religion and the chescks and balances we see in the constitution. Where it "counted" they were Calvinists:>)

747 posted on 02/23/2003 8:23:29 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: nickcarraway
St. Augustine was a Calvinist? I missed the part in Confessions where he mentioned reading Calvin.

LOL nick..seeing that Luther and Calvin based much of their doctrine on Augustine maybe we should say they were Augustinians:>)

Calvinism is a short hand phrase for the doctrines of Grace..or reformed doctrine..

748 posted on 02/23/2003 8:25:56 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Where it "counted" they were Calvinists:>)

No, they were not. It is very simple. You and others post a list naming Episcopalians as Calvinists. That was dead wrong. Episcopalians are not Calvinists. The rest of it has been Calvinists trying to claim more credit than is their due.

Listing Episcopalians as Calvinists is an error. To stubbornly maintain an error and to refuse to acknowledge one's error exposes something else altogether.

749 posted on 02/23/2003 12:19:13 PM PST by Siobhan (+Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet+)
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To: RnMomof7
Look back at some of the posts..you wanted to make doublepredestination the test..but that is not the test...then you wanted to make Eucharist the test ..but that is not the test..

No, I didn't. They were not 'tests' but part of my observations on just how ridiculous it is to claim that Episcopalians are Calvinists or to quote the 39 Articles when one has a limited grasp of their meaning, their historical context, or the Anglican methodology for authority on doctrine, namely tradition, Scripture, and reason.

750 posted on 02/23/2003 12:24:23 PM PST by Siobhan (+Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet+)
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To: nickcarraway
LOL.
751 posted on 02/23/2003 12:28:09 PM PST by Siobhan (+Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet+)
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To: St.Chuck; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7; Matchett-PI; Jean Chauvin; EthanNorth; nobdysfool; ...
As a follow-up to my previous posts, let me clearly affirm that religious freedom is a Christian idea. The fact that it is a Christian idea is seen in the fact that it is clearly taught in the New Testament. (This is one of the reasons why the Islamofascists hate us. They think religious freedom is an awful thing.)

In the next place, let me affirm that religious freedom is a peculiarly Protestant idea in Church history. The religious freedom clause of our Constitution's First Amendment really was a kind of flowering of the Reformation.

***

It is worth mentioning as an aside that the above two points are interrelated. The fact that religious freedom is a Christian idea taught in the New Testament is ultimately why the Protestants, not the RCs, picked up on it.

(As you should already realize, the RCC's doctrine of spiritual authority defines the broader positions of the Church as authoritative. This position tends to make the RCC less careful about what the Bible actually teaches.

I am trying not to be inflammatory, but I am also trying to be clear. The problem is, the RCC invariably presupposes that the Bible agrees with the RCC. You know this as well as I do. What you have never admitted, however, is that the Protestants have cogently argued that Bible clearly doesn't agree with the RCC on a great many points--for example, the RC notion of the priesthood [a priesthood which Protestants regard for serious Scriptural reasons as fundamentally illegal].

***

When we realize that the New Testament really does insist on a very real separation of Church and State, the fact that the framing of our Constitution was dominated by mature Protestants explains everything.

Your speculation that the Americans had softened toward RCism because of the support given them by Catholic France misses an extraordinarily important point. What you need to realize is that our First Amendment actually represents a repudiation of RCism (since the RCC had historically asserted Church-Statism).

In other words, the reason why RCs were granted full civil liberty in a Protestant-dominated nation is because those Protestants remained very much opposed to RCism. The Protestants insisted on religious freedoms which would NOT have been granted if America had been under the control of RCs.

Perhaps it sounds crazy to say that RCs were granted religious freedom because our Framers hated RCism, but it is ultimately correct. Our nation's founders had not forgotten that Catholic France had killed tens of thousands of Protestants over purely religious disagreements only a couple of centuries earlier. America's founders were determined to make sure that this Word-hating, murderous mess of Constantinism never happened over here.

Someone might very well ask "If this is true, how could America's allegiance have forged an alliance with a thorougly Catholic France during the Revolution?"

The answer is simple. It goes back to what I have been saying all along, i.e., that the Church is not the State.

(Our nation's founders regarded the military alliance with France as a matter of State, not a matter of the Lord's Church acting as such. They realized that the military alliance contained no endorsement whatsoever of RCism--because our State cannot, indeed, must not establish religion.)

752 posted on 02/23/2003 1:34:37 PM PST by the_doc
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To: St.Chuck; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7; Matchett-PI; Jean Chauvin; EthanNorth; nobdysfool; ...
A correction is needed. I meant to say:

Someone might very well ask "If this is true, how could Americans, in their allegiance to Protestant principles, forge an alliance with a thoroughly Catholic France during the Revolution?"

[et cetera]

753 posted on 02/23/2003 1:45:05 PM PST by the_doc
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To: Siobhan; Matchett-PI
The Episcopalian church that adheres to its historic doctrine is still Reformed in the United States.

X. OF FREE WILL. (39 Articles of Religion).

The condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith, and calling upon God. Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will.

That is calvinism

XVII. OF PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION

Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption:they be made like the image of his only- begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

that my friend is reform doctrine. (called Calvinism).

You may not like it . You can keep denying it ..but Calvinists ..including Anglican Calvinist wrote the constitution..you have not produced anything but your personal denials..notone bit of proof ...show us the beef..:>)

754 posted on 02/23/2003 3:49:38 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: the_doc
These mature Protestants knew the history of the Reformation (and the longer history of the RCC) a lot better than you do, I'm afraid.

Yes, I am having to broaden my knowlege of the "flowering of Protestantism". I'll get back to you on this subject.

755 posted on 02/23/2003 5:56:50 PM PST by St.Chuck
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Love is what Jesus asks of us. And love is an act of free will. Without free will we are not able to love God or our fellow man.
756 posted on 02/23/2003 7:09:36 PM PST by RichardMoore
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To: RnMomof7
Of course, intelligent design is what I believe in, as opposed to accidental happenstance. But what has that got to do with free will? Man must have free will or else he would not be worthy to love God in the way he should be loved. You would not accept that a robot could love it's creator, would you?
757 posted on 02/23/2003 7:14:43 PM PST by RichardMoore
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
The problem that Luther had with James was that he said faith without works was a dead thing. The question centers around the idea of predestination, a buggaboo that Luther unleased and which led to the average folks deciding that they could do whatever they wanted because they were either saved or not and they could do nothing about it. Because they had no free will, according to Luther. Are you telling me that Luther changed his position on free will in his later years?
758 posted on 02/23/2003 7:20:56 PM PST by RichardMoore
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To: RnMomof7
Enough is enough. I have told you the books you need to go read and you continue to put forward the same quotes from the 39 Articles as if they were a Confession upon which Anglicans built their theological house. The 39 Articles are not a Confession nor are they a Catechism. They are an outline of salient points as the Church of England tried to take a course midway between Rome and Geneva. The Articles are but one of several documents of historical importance, but your constant quoting of the bits you like as a Calvinist does not make Anglican theology Calvinist. It just doesn't work that way.

The Episcopalian Founding Fathers were not Calvinists. Anglicans had a long, bitter, and horrible experience of Calvinists before the restoration of the monarchy, and even the adept and intelligent views of Richard Baxter could not overcome the huge chasm between the 2 camps.

By the way, the 39 Aritcles were null and void as the Episcopalians divided from the Church of England. And the Episcopal Church only approved their own revised Articles in 1789. Moreover, The Book of Common Prayer is the most important document in understanding Anglican theology, and while Calvin tried to influence that Prayer Book, the ideas of Martin Bucer and Zwingli outgunned Calvin's, much to his dismay. If you have any interest in the development of the Book of Common Prayer, I have some books I can suggest for further reading.

Oh, and once again, the Episcopalian founding fathers were not Calvinists.

759 posted on 02/23/2003 7:41:42 PM PST by Siobhan (+Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet+)
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To: Siobhan
Oh, and once again, the Episcopalian founding fathers were not Calvinists.

LOL yes they were..almost all protestants were calvinists then..but one thing we do know for sure they were not Catholics or there would never have been freedom of religion:>)

760 posted on 02/24/2003 7:44:58 AM PST by RnMomof7
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