The Church's Witness to the World: Chapter 13

N/A | 1980 | P. Y. DeJong

[RnMomof7]

On the face of it this statement seems contradictory. How can someone who appoints everything to happen NOT be charged(blamed) with what happens?

It just "happens" that one of the books I am reading now (two chapters a day so as not to overload my aging brain:>) Is a book by Sproul on doctrine

He speaks of it this way ..and it says what I ~thought~ I understood much better than I ever could

The central point of the doctrine of God's providence is the stress on God's government of the universe. He rules his creation with absolute sovereignty and authority.He governs everything that comes to pass, from the greatest to the least.Nothing ever happens beyond the scope of His providential government.He raisers up Kingdoms and He brings them down.He numbers the hairs on our head and the days of our life.

There is a crucial difference between the providence of God and fortune,fate or luck. The key difference is found in the character of God. Fortune is blind, but God is all seeing. Fate is impersonal but God isa father.Luck is dumb while God can speak.There are no blind impersonal forces at work in human history. All is brought to pass by the invisible hand of providence .

In a universe goverened by God there are no chance events.Indeed,there is no such thing as chance. Chance does not exist. It is mearly a word we use todescribe mathematical possibilities. But chance itself has nopower because it has no being.Chance is not an entity that can influence reality.Chance is not a thing. It is nothing.

Another aspect of providence is concurrence.Concurrencerefers to the coterminous actions of God and human beings. We are creatures with a will of our own.We make things happen. Yet the casual power we exert is secondary .God's providence stands over and above our actions. He works out His will through the actions of human wills, without violating the freedom of human wills.

Essential Truths of the Christian Faith . RC Sproul pp 62

He cites as examples of the will of man working Gods plan the account in Genesis of Joseph and the treachery of Judas..

(typos mine:>)

[ksen]

But when these people faced the fears and frustrations of daily living, they sought refuge for their minds and hearts by explaining the hard facts of life as the fruits of fate and chance.

This seems to be what the author is arguing against, the belief that the course of Men's lives are ruled by fate and chance. That's nice, but I have never heard a Christian Minister/Pastor/Whatever teach that. I'm getting through the article and it seems so far that the author is spending his time beating up this straw man.

Now I agree that the 21st century Christian needs a healthy dose of teaching about God and His Sovereignty, but I don't think the two choices are God's Sovereigny and capricious fate.

[ksen]

Here we confess that he so acts in and through all his creatures, according to the laws of their being which he himself has created and maintains, that he both causes them to act and to act precisely as they do....The problem, indeed, assumes a different shape when we face the insoluble riddle of sin and its entrance into the world.

What riddle? According to the author God causes them(us) to act as precisely as they(we) do. Given that and given that Man commits sin, Who causes(-ed) sin?

There is no riddle. Given the statements made by this author God caused sin to enter this world.

I don't know about you, but I have a hard time swallowing that.

[ksen]

In the words of Berkouwer, “That is the terrible seriousness of history, that God works in it, and that man is responsible for it.” [5]

Hmm, sounds like someone wants to have his cake and eat it too.

[Corin Stormhands]

Given the statements made by this author God caused sin to enter this world. I don't know about you, but I have a hard time swallowing that.

Same here, ksen.

[ksen]

All Reformed believers, in spite of repeated accusations and calumnies hurled against them and their view of divine providence, reject categorically that God is in any sense the author of sin.

So when someone takes the doctrines espoused by Reformed Believers to their logical conclusions they are guilty of calumny?

[ksen]

We refuse to regard God merely as a passive spectator much less a hapless bystander.

*cough*strawman*cough*

So does everyone else I know, even Arminians.

[ksen]

He is never forced contrary to his mind and will to do that which is evil. Rather, he commits sin by his own decision.

True, but the author stated earlier that it was God who gave Man his mind and will in the first place.

My son loves Hot Wheels, especially the race tracks. Let's say I build a race car track that leads the car out into the middle of a busy road. I place the car onto the track and let it go. The Hot Wheels car goes out into traffic and gets smushed. Who is responsible for the car getting smushed? The car or the one who built the track in such a way that the car, by its nature, went out into traffic?

[ksen]

“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man; but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.” (Jas. 1:13,14)

That's a good passage.

What about this one?

I Cor 10:
[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

[ksen]

This is not available on-line. I had to make some minor edits of form as well as some corrections for spelling and verse citations.

Good night man! You typed that whole thing in? Kudos to you Jean. It was an interesting read. Thanks for prodding me to finish it.

[ksen]

I think I understand what the author is reacting against. The thought that God created the universe and then has left it alone ever since. That should be reacted against because says that is not true in His Word.

However, I think Pastor DeJong, and the Reformers in general, has, in reacting against this bad doctrine, gone too far the other way. I believe they offer us a false choice when they tell us it is either fate/chance or God ordering every little thing everyone does.

RnMom, sorry, I should have been pinging you to my comments above.

[ksen]

There is a crucial difference between the providence of God and fortune,fate or luck. The key difference is found in the character of God. Fortune is blind, but God is all seeing. Fate is impersonal but God isa father.Luck is dumb while God can speak.There are no blind impersonal forces at work in human history. All is brought to pass by the invisible hand of providence .

In a universe goverened by God there are no chance events.Indeed,there is no such thing as chance. Chance does not exist. It is mearly a word we use todescribe mathematical possibilities. But chance itself has nopower because it has no being.Chance is not an entity that can influence reality.Chance is not a thing. It is nothing.

Thanks for the quote Mom. However, I still don't think it is valid to say it is either God ordering everything or chance/fate/luck.

[RnMomof7]

Thanks for the quote Mom. However, I still don't think it is valid to say it is either God ordering everything or chance/fate/luck.

Kevin do you belive God has a plan for your life? What is the third choice?

[ksen]

Kevin do you belive God has a plan for your life?

Of course I do. Do I believe that I could lose out on that plan (not salvation) because of my sinful actions? I sure do.

What is the third choice?

The third option is that God lets us live our lives. He clearly lays out our options and lets us make our choices. What was it He told the Israelites? " I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" (De 30:19)

Do you believe what the author of this article is saying?

[Jean Chauvin]

"The third option is that God lets us live our lives. He clearly lays out our options and lets us make our choices."

In all seriousness, how is this really different than fate or chance?

Think of it this way. How is it that I might come to die in a car accident at the hands of an individual who utilized his Free-Will choice to drink to excess before he sets out in his car. It seems that the luck of the draw, so to speak, went against me. I was in "the wrong place at the wrong time." I wasn't "lucky"...

Jean

[RnMomof7]

Of course I do. Do I believe that I could lose out on that plan (not salvation) because of my sinful actions? I sure do.

Then God actually has no plan does He? He can not "plan " on you giving the gospel to the next Billy Graham..cause maybe you will be a mormon..So God can not plan to use you in any significant way can He because you may not be around.

Kevin how much of your life has been your choice? How much was actually out of your control?

The third option is that God lets us live our lives. He clearly lays out our options and lets us make our choices. What was it He told the Israelites? " I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" (De 30:19)

I believe that I had to make a choice and so did you..we must choose Christ..

The question is not about the command of God ..but mans ability or desire to choose God given the fall

[Jean Chauvin]

In the words of Berkouwer, “That is the terrible seriousness of history, that God works in it, and that man is responsible for it.” [5]

"Hmm, sounds like someone wants to have his cake and eat it too."

This is precisely what the DeJong is arguing.

Isn't that what the Scriptures declare in Acts 2:23?

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

It was God's will that Christ be sacrificed on the cross. God determined this to be. Furthermore, the very same passage testifies that this murder of Christ was done by "wicked hands".

Both God "working it" and man "responsible for it".

In Genesis 50:20 we see the same thought when Joseph reassures his brothers about God's plan:

20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God ~MEANT IT~ unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Again, we see God "works" the events of Joseph's life, but the brother's were responsible for the evil which they committed against Joseph.

It is quite clear!

But, it seems that your objection is philisophical in nature.

In fact, your objection falls in line precisely as DeJong argues:

In this connection we do well to remember that as Christians we refuse to be forced into a choice between determinism or indeterminism. This choice is forced only upon philosophers who in their speculation have failed to reckon with the unique relation, which the created order sustains to the Creator.

I'm curious as to whether you hold this "have your cake and eat it, too" standard with other Scriptural truths such as Creation ex nihilo (creation out of NOTHING), the Incarnation, the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection?

Do you deny that God can "have his cake and eat it too"?

1 Kings 17
14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth.
15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.
16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.

Note, for the record, that the Widow of Zarephath did indeed "have her oil and flower and ate it too"!

Jean

[ksen]

So then God determined that Man was to sin and Man is responsible for it?

[ksen]

Then God actually has no plan does He? He can not "plan " on you giving the gospel to the next Billy Graham..cause maybe you will be a mormon..So God can not plan to use you in any significant way can He because you may not be around.

Of course God has a plan. Mom, when you stand before the Judgement seat of Christ, will you suffer loss? If you do, then that means, God had planned to give you something but for some reason you don't get it.

How can that be if everything God plans out comes to be?

[RnMomof7]

Excellent post Jean..and to the point..what we know is that God has allowed man choices within His moral will...but we also know that our decisions are with in His sovereign will...