Vatican: Harry Potter's OK with us

Reuters via CNN ^

[cantfindagoodscreenname]

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) -- Harry Potter fans, relax. The Vatican says the kid is all right.

The question of whether J.K. Rowling's books and the films on the boy wizard have a positive influence came up at a news conference Monday where the Vatican presented a document on "New Age" spirituality, which contain elements of the occult.

[Maximilian]

Having never played MtG, a collectable card game about as far from a RPG like D&D, I do not know.

I have a brother-in-law and several cousins who are heavily into role-playing games. One of them even runs a shop. It's just not true to say that Magic the Gathering is not related to role-playing games. They are very intimately connected in many ways. I have seen them go back and forth from one to the other and even play both simultaneously. Many of the elements are identical.

Would you agree with this statement: "It is possible to play role-playing games in a way which is harmless fun and has nothing to do with the occult. But it is also possible to become involved in occult-related activities in this way."?

[Antoninus]

“The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13, Knox).

Rome has seven hills, right? And the Beast has seven horns, right? Hence the beast is symbolic of Rome, right? Only problem is... the Vatican isn't one of Rome's seven hills.... Bummer, dude. The Rome/Babylon spoken of in the early epistles was pagan Rome under Nero, not Christian Rome.

If not for Christian Rome and her near 2,000 year heritage led on by Divine Providence, you'd probably still be praying to Demeter to give you good crops this year.

[T Minus Four]

Marry Poppins (she could fly), Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs (magic), Santa Clause (flying raindeer), Fantasia (magic), Lion King (talking animals)

Yes, but those were all long before Harry Potter.

But hey, don't forget The Brave Little Toaster. Talking animals is one thing, but talking appliances? Whew, creepy.

[Karsus]

I have seen CCGs ran. They are nothing like RPGs. For one, it doesn't take near as much money to play RPGs as it does to play CCGs. Second, CCGs are more strategy than Role Playing.

Your statement could be applied to anything. It could even, with a few changes, be applied to those that twist the Bible to get others to do what they want.

What about my question on what people call witchcraft in D&D? If no rituals, secret words, hand movements or the like are involved and everything is resolved by the roll of the dice, how is it witchcraft?

[Antoninus]

If a billion are deceived because they misunderstand the Word of God, then they're deceived, but what God really said still goes.

It's really not likely that all several billion of us Catholics over the centuries have misunderstood for all these years, but somehow, you and your minister, just now, managed to get it right.

[Antoninus]

I just realized as a young man, that much of what I was taught that the Bible said, when I read it myself, did not seem to say what I had been told.

Of course, you read it in the original Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew, right?

[Karsus]

I don't know. He may be from the South (like I am). Some ministers down here think they have a custom, one of a kind Bible given personaly to them by God.

[T Minus Four]

If no rituals, secret words, hand movements or the like are involved and everything is resolved by the roll of the dice, how is it witchcraft?

Or different than Monopoly, if I may play (if you will excuse the expression) devil's advocate.

Oh man, I gotta go to bed! You can blast me for that tomorrow!

[SamAdams76]

I've read all the Harry Potter books (as my kids have read them repeatedly) and the so-called "witchcraft" that all the critics rail about is benign. Anybody reading the Harry Potter books to learn about "black magic" will be as frustrated as one who watches a Gilligan's Island marathon to learn how to survive on a deserted island.

It's nothing but fantasy. Like J.R.R. Tolkien, J.K. Rowling creates an imaginary world. Obviously Rowling is not anywhere close to being the literary equal of Tolkien, after all, these are kids books, but it is obvious that Rowling was influenced by the works of Tolkien to some extent. There are definitely parallels between Sauron of LOTR and Voldemort of HP, for just one example.

In my opinion, the books impart good conservative values for kids. The characters Harry Potter, Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, Dumbledore (and a few others) are are good role models for kids. The kids take their studies seriously and try to do the right thing. They find themselves in adverse and dangerous situations that they usually handle with aplomb. It's classic good vs. evil.

The irony is that some of the santimonious twits who bleat about how harmful all this "wizardry" is for our kids can be found on the LOTR threads lavishing praise on the recent movies being made of it.

While I realize that the works of Tolkien are masterpieces and not even in the same literary ballpark as the Potter books, they certainly are "wizard-wise" and "magic-wise." The Potter books are for kids after all and only stepping stones to the works of say, C.S. Lewis and Tolkien.

[Maximilian]

Can you give some examples of the occult creeping into pop culture that I might have overlooked?

I'm no expert on popular culture, but here's a few off the top of my head:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Angel (the Buffy spin-off where the evil guy is the hero)
Charmed (the TV series)
The Craft (movie about witches)
Sabrina the Teenage Witch
AntiChrist Superstar (along with much other rock music, although that seems to be waning)
the Goth movement

Notice a theme here -- along with Harry Potter, these are all aimed at the teenage and under audience. I had an argument with our local librarian when the library had a special display of occult books that told you how to cast spells and things, aimed at young people. There was even one of those "Dummies" books on magic.

"Tidal wave" might have been a bit of hyperbole, but it's certainly more than just a groundswell.

[Maximilian]

What about my question on what people call witchcraft in D&D?

Here's a story I just ran across:

The study by the Lexington Herald-Leader was motivated by the murder of two people on November 25, 1996, by a vampire cult led by Kentucky teenager Rod Ferrell.

Ferrell claims that, as a young child, he was exposed to occult rituals and human sacrifices by his father and first stepfather.3 More plausibly, Ferrell also claims to have been exposed to the occult and vampirism as a child through playing Dungeons & Dragons.4 He began to engage in serious occultic practices following his mother’s second divorce, walking in cemeteries at night, cutting himself and offering his blood to others, and pretending to be a 500 year-old vampire named “Vesago.”5

In addition to more typical acts of teenage rebellion (such as using drugs and avoiding school), Ferrell became involved in a role-playing game called Vampire: The Masquerade. Masquerade players physically engage in the actions of their characters, much like they would do if performing in a play, whereas traditional tabletop role-playing games involve dice, playing cards, and other components used by players to imagine the action being described.

Ferrell’s pretense at vampirism eventually led him into contact with a young man named Stephen Murphy, who led Ferrell towards “crossing over” and becoming a real vampire.6 This friendship ended in 1996 after Murphy attacked Ferrell; shortly after, Ferrell’s mother was charged with soliciting a minor (Murphy’s 14 year-old brother), whom she begged to “‘cross her over’ and have her as his vampire bride.”7

During his friendship with Murphy, Ferrell began his friendships with Charity Lynn Keesee, Howard Scott Anderson, and Dana Cooper. These three constituted the members of Ferrell’s “vampire cult,” engaging in group sex and drinking blood as part of their vampire rituals.8 The four youth allegedly killed Richard Wendorf and Naoma Queen at the behest of their daughter, Heather Wendorf, so that Heather could join the cult. The cult was captured in Baton Rouge, Lousiana, allegedly while travelling to New Orleans to meet Anne Rice.9

Ferrell was sentenced to death for the murders of Wendorf and Queen. At his sentencing the judge described Ferrell as “a disturbed young man” who proves “there is genuine evil in the world.”10

[Trailerpark Badass]

I (personally) am convinced that much of Catholic tradition is pagan worship "in Jesus' name".

I'm sure you have lots of fanciful notions.

I hope you can forgive this Catholic for not really caring.

[Scupoli]

I don't take the subject of evil spirits lightly. I am fairly well versed in the actualities of witchcraft, pagan religions and other non-Catholic religions. I study them and I do not fear them. Except for perhaps Satanism which disturbs me so thoroughly I haven't made much progress there. I saw enough that I didn't wish to go further.

I don't care to go into details here but I do not believe Harry Potter in any way, shape or form could turn a well balanced child into a witch anymore than the fairy tales I grew up on. I am grounded enough in my Faith to know the difference between what's real and what is not. Perhaps if an individual is not then the books would not be appropriate. At the time the first HP book came out, Fox News had an interview with a self proclaimed warlock from Britain. He was upset because of the inaccuracies in Harry Potter. He felt it wasn't real witchcraft at all. I do see your points and they are certainly valid. Witchcraft is real but HP isn't it. That's what I am saying.

I have heard of the book you mentioned and wanted to read it for some time but I have not. I will take a look at the link.

[OHelix]

Carving "Christ Lives" on an obelisk does not change it from being an obelisk, anymore than obliterating the inscription on a pagan temple and replacing it with "This is the Temple of Jesus" makes the Idol in the temple no longer an Idol.

I think the above statement is accurate. I'm not saying that because the Catholic Church moved an obelisk to the Vatican that it is proof they have embraced pagan religion and called it Christian... Only that it is not an unreasonable argument toward that suspicion. It may be explained (as some have done in this post). My original point is that there are many things, Obelisk included, that are not inconsistent with the doctrine of the RCC having been tollerent of certain aspects of paganism. I think there have been some reasonable explainations of the Obelisk given which would be contrary to that doctrine.

As per me being ignorant, you are correct, I am quite ignorant. There is much I do not know. I would assume you are also ignorant of many things. So unless you are speaking from some omniscience that I don't posses, or have personal knowlege of the things which you profess, other than having believed what someone told you, calling me ignorant is nothing more than diversionary hypocrisy.

If you are saying that I am totally ignorant of paganism, you are greatly mistaken.

[OHelix]

Please refer to my post #66

[Maximilian]

I study them and I do not fear them.

Your other points are all well taken. As I've said, it's still not clear where Harry Potter is going to end up. But I wouldn't give a blanket absolution yet. As to your statement above, I think that to study them is to fear them. This does not represent a lack of faith, but rather true faith in the reality and the power of the supernatural.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Peter 5:8 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

With the aid of grace and we can hope to overcome him. But underestimating the devil is usually a fatal error.

St. Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou O prince of the heavenly host
By the power of God cast into Hell Satan
and all the evil spirits that prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.

Pope Leo asked all Catholics to say this prayer after every Mass. It was dropped right after Vatican II. Since then the devil has had a field day.

[Antoninus]

As per me being ignorant, you are correct, I am quite ignorant. There is much I do not know.

Piece of friendly advice. If you're ignorant of a given subject (like Catholicism's imagined "tolerance" of paganism), it's probably better not to make bold accusations and broadcast your ignorance to the world.

[Antoninus]

Can you give some examples of the occult creeping into pop culture that I might have overlooked?

Also, you might try attending any sci-fi/fantasy fan convention (not recommended for those with shaky faith or weak stomachs). They are positively littered with occultists. To admit you are a practicing Catholic at one of these things is like admitting you have scabies at a high society luncheon. The good news is that most of these folks are well into their 50s now....

[OHelix]

It's really not likely that all several billion of us Catholics over the centuries have misunderstood for all these years, but somehow, you and your minister, just now, managed to get it right.

(BTW- just me, no "minister" indocrinitatting me over my shoulder) Do you think your argument makes my statement inaccurate? "If I'm deceived because I misunderstand the Word of God, then I'm deceived, but what God really said still goes... If a billion are deceived because they misunderstand the Word of God, then they're deceived, but what God really said still goes.."

Of course, you read it in the original Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew, right?

I have studied ancient Greek, and I do read some Greek texts. Mostly I read a mojority text New Testament which footnotes discrepancies when texts differ. I use a liddle and scott lexicon (the smallest) and the perseus project on the internet to research words I have questions about. My second major was Ancient Greek in a secular University. I had a self-proclaimed "athiest-Jew" as one of my professors. I enjoyed having that professors opinion on some of the theological battles of words.

I wish I knew Hebrew/Aramaic, but alas... As previously concluded, I am quite ignorant. Occaisionally, I will read in the Vulgate, just to try to hone up on my Latin, but my vocabulary is so limited, it's too slow for real study.

Most people here are intelligent enough to recognize that your arguments are not arguments... They are attempted ridicule. I'd be pleased to hear a reasoned argument from you. I'm assuming you have some of the knowledge you ridiculed me about. I'd enjoy some dialog in that regard. Maybe you could teach me some Hebrew/Aramaic.

[Dajjal]

Vatican: Harry Potter's OK with us

Great! I suppose now we'll see a photo of John Paul II kissing a copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone!!!!