Anyone have any experience with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal? (Movement) (Vanity)

posted 9 January 2003 | NWU Army ROTC

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

I have a good Catholic Friend who was recommending that I find out about the Charismatic Movement and I have heard and read some interesting things. I am wondering if any Catholic Freepers have an experience with this movement (I know they do not like the term movement). God Bless

Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit

[JNB]

The Charismatic "renewal" for Catholics has many definitions. For one, I believe the numbers that many Charismatic supports claim, close to 10% of Catholics in the world, and up to 15 million in the uS are very dramatically overinflated. The loose definition I take it is any mass that has protestant influenced or uptempo, music, such as the so called teen or youth mass.

That said, the dedicated Charismatic renewal is far smaller. They often get together in prayer groups, outside of mass because many of the things they do, such as speak in tounges, is not premitted in mass. As for its orthdoxy, I will not write it off completely because Franciscan U in Ohio and Dr Scott Hahn claim to be part of the Charismatic renewal, but often from what it seems, it seems like the church' attempt to imitate Evangelical Christianity.

[Jael]

The following eyewitness report of the Laughing Revival, otherwise known as the Toronto Blessing, is from the Canadian Revivalist, September-October 1994 --

On October 20, 1994, we went to the Vineyard Fellowship to witness the so-called "Toronto Blessing," held in a warehouse type building near the airport. There were about 400 people in the main hall, plus an overflow room. A survey by the leader indicated representation mainly from the United Kingdom and the United States.

Other countries represented were Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Holland, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Most areas of Canada were represented, but only a relatively few visitors from Toronto itself. The home congregation, when asked to stand, numbered less than twenty. This proved what we knew--that the "Toronto Blessing" has little impact here.

What we observed was sickening and diabolical. Many times we felt like walking out and had to force ourselves to stay.

REPETITIOUS ROCK MUSIC. For the first forty-five minutes a band with two soloists led the singing. The people were standing and singing with them to deafening rock type music. The songs were about worshiping the Lord, but the music and behaviour seemed to be opposed to the Lord's honour. During the singing the crowd was progressively aroused. In all, only about four different songs were used but each was repeated over and over--the chorus of the first song being sung thirty times.

There was much arm waving, shouting with horrifying screams and, when the music volume was lowered, the drone of what must have been "tongues" could be heard. By the end of the singing many of the crowd were exhibiting spasmodic, uncontrollable bodily "jerks," which continued for the rest of the evening. When the leaders were speaking and one of those spasms occurred they either made a loud shout, or their words came out as a shout.

BIRTH GROANS. Apparently this evening marked nine months since these happenings began and they felt they had now "come to birth." Between two of the songs, one of their own women went off in a screaming account of the movement coming to birth. Her screams and actions were so realistic that for a time we thought she was actually experiencing labour pains.

Four people were called forward to testify, but they had very little to say except that since receiving the "blessing" they had a love for everyone. One man declared he had received the gift of prophecy that afternoon. He also said when he saw people lying on the floor after receiving "the blessing," he wanted to lie on top of them to share it.

STRANGE PHENOMENON. One woman was so overcome by the spasms she appeared to be very drunk and could hardly walk. Her testimony time was taken up by her and the leader making jokes about her appearance of drunkenness. The crowd laughed hilariously so that it resembled a comedy show at a theatre. Following each "testimony" the leader prayed for them and they fell into a trance, one man later roaring like a lion.

LETTING GO. The leader then asked all who found it difficult to "let go" and receive the "blessing" to say a prayer after him. Throughout the prayer, he was alternating expressions about them "giving God permission to break down any barriers" and that God was sovereign. The question came to mind, if God is sovereign why do we have to give Him permission to work on us?

ECUMENICAL UNITY. The speaker's text was John 17:20-23. The only message he could get from it was that the Father wanted to be intimate with us so that we could display love to others. Walls had to come down, he said, for we are all one in Jesus. During his message he went into fits of unnatural, uncontrollable laughter which lasted about five minutes. All evening various people were taken with fits of maniacal laughter.

SLAIN. Two and a half hours after the meeting started, the chairs were cleared and those who wished to receive "the blessing" were lined up along pre-marked lines. Members of the mission team, each accompanied by a "catcher," went to people and prayed over them, with their hand on the person's head or chest. The people would fall to the floor, eased down by the "catcher."

It appeared that in the quiet way they were praying they were putting the people into an hypnotic trance. Some lay totally still as if asleep, and others experienced bodily convulsions. By the end, the whole floor was covered with people lying about. Some were women in dresses or skirts and men would arrange their clothes as they lay there.

BIG DADDY GOD. Another striking point was that very little was said of Christ. Nearly every reference was to the Father, many times referred to as "Big Daddy." Even the hymn, "Jesus loves me" was changed to, "The Father loves me, this I know." Virtually the only time the Lord and His death were mentioned was in the context of the Father's love. There was no mention of the blood of Christ, and the fact of being saved was noticeably absent.

The word "repent" was used several times but only in the context that they should repent for not taking down the barriers to allow God to come into them and give them "the blessing."

Two scriptures came to mind repeatedly. 1 Corinthians 14:40, "Let all things be done decently and in order." And 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they might all be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The impression gained was that the devil was at work, and he would not be upset that they were singing and talking of the Lord, for there was nothing honouring to the Lord anyway, and that he (the devil) had them in his hands. It is sad to think that some genuine Christians have so little teaching in their churches that they get caught up in such things.

One respected brother, observing how far removed from biblical truth the whole exercise was, said that if what was seen in that Vineyard meeting was Christianity, then he was not a Christian and the Bible had nothing to say about Christianity. That is a valid observation (Eyewitness Report of the Toronto Blessing by Don Morley, Canadian Revivalist, September-October 1994).

[Fury]

Didn't raves start up near Toronto? :)

[Jael]

Looks that way!

[madprof98]

One of the originators of the contemporary Catholic charismatic movement was Bill Storey, a theology professor at Duquesne and then at Notre Dame. I was very close to Storey back in the 1960s, and I came to know others in the movement as well. (Of course, it took off from ND to many other parts of the country.) Storey was a man in search of a faith. Before he retired from ND, he had declared himself both a homosexual activist (he had sired five children) and an atheist. In the context of his life, Pentecostal emotionalism was just one more passing enthusiasm. I suspect that is what it is in the lives of many other people as well.

[american colleen]

For what it's worth, I believe the charismatic movement is dangerous. Years ago when I was in my early 20s, I attended a charismatic Mass with my friend... it was weird and scary. Speaking in tongues, bobbing and weaving and glazed looks in some eyes. I gave it one more chance and both my friend and I were convinced that this wasn't something from God.

Maybe I am wrong, but many people I used to know were tied up with the charismatics back in the 70s, almost all of them are screwed up - divorced, drink, etc., etc. Maybe it was the times, who knows. But all that stuff scared me - and I've been to all of the wacky stuff found in the corners of Catholicism (dragged around as a kid and young teen).

I've gotten to the point in life where I cannot understand all the searching for a fuller prayer life when the one we have within Catholicism (Mass, Benediction, Rosary, Eucharistic Adoration) is so fulfulling and holy. The trick of it is finding a good orthodox parish.

Tell your friend that it is hard to discern what is true and what is not Catholicism unless you have a good orthodox priest. So much of the new age stuff is taught (by priests and nuns, sadly) using a few key Catholic words... making you think that this stuff must be OK - and it is not. I still get confused. Luckily, I have someone I trust who knows what is what and I bounce things off of her when I have to.

Stay on the narrow road... it's easier in the end!

[Cleburne]

My people perish for lack of knowledge... Sadly, though, those sorts of things are all too common in "mainstream" services: certainly not as horrible as the Toronto "Revival", but appealing to the sames desires and emotions. After all, the truth can be hard, not so much to understand, but to accept. Quick experiencialism in a single "service" is much easier and more exciting than living in patience and endurance towards perfection in Christ. Loud and emotional music and racous "preaching" seems more "powerful" than the sober-minded speaking of the Word (as the poor fellow in Acts who fell out of the window might attest!). How much easier it is to experience an event than to live in the faith daily! A "faith healing meeting" with promise of "blessings" will attract many more than the hard words of "take up your cross daily and follow me". Many desire material blessings; few desire to glory in suffering.

I speak for myself: I would much rather an easy path of some sort (though, for my part, I would incline to rationalism rather than revivalism) than the often times hard path laid out. But then, no man walks in the stead of faith under his own strength. It is only be God' mercy and calling and power that one may trod that path. It is only through Christ that we may experience God's fullness and joy. And when we do, we find it vastly far from the cheap imitations these wordly heresies give.

[Cleburne]

I can't speak for Catholicism, but my dad was brought up around Charismatics and Pentecostals, with a goodly bit of his family being in the movement (that being back in "the day", the years- 60's and 70's that I find, out of all history, most unfathomable...). He was in and out of the movement, but finally decided they were so unorthodox and so often unscriptural that they weren't of much account. Oddly, I have a inclination towards the more reverent and ordered elements of Christianity... He found that many seemingly "pious" people on Sundays we "live like the devil" the next day. He found that when someone "prophesied" in tongues, the interpretation was always the same. And he could obviously find no Scriptural basis for being "slain in the spirit".

Though, I must say, there are some wonderful Pentecostal folks around, and I believe they are devoted in their way to God- but they are too based upon emotion and temporary things, rather than on anything of substance. The movement has its good points- but they are nothing that cannot be found (albiet sometimes diluted and obscured) in orthodox Christianity.

[Desdemona]

Personally, I would avoid anything with "charismatic" and "renewal" in the title. Too many worms.

[the808bass]

Charismatic bump. I had to have one vote for the good guys.

[american colleen]

Though, I must say, there are some wonderful Pentecostal folks around, and I believe they are devoted in their way to God- but they are too based upon emotion and temporary things, rather than on anything of substance. The movement has its good points- but they are nothing that cannot be found (albiet sometimes diluted and obscured) in orthodox Christianity.

Yes, I think you've got it - emotion and temporary things or new experiences... and all along, the Truth is right in front of our noses!

[Maximilian]

Several other Freepers have posted good information. Here are some additional articles warning you to stay far away from this "movement":

http://www.the-pope.com/charis.html

Quote:
"Parents considering sending their children to Steubenville University should know that Father Scanlon boasted with great pride, "75% of all students of the Franciscan University at Steubenville, have been prayed with
to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit." Also, a busload or two of Steubenville students were manning the volunteer work at this conference.

The Charismatic Saturday Night Dance that followed Fr. Scanlon's speech would launch the element of the absurd to skyscraping heights. Of course, this "Saturday Night Fever" approach to religion was also undeservedly dignified with the name "ministry session." It consisted of Pentecostal Diva, Babsie Bleasdell, "doing her thing" over the microphone for about an hour.

The session was one of Bleasdell preaching and leading prayers in the revivalist, Baptist patter of "praise the Lord, Alleluia, the spirit of fear and doubt be gone in the Name of Jesus, let the Spirit of God fall upon you... a spirit of joy! joy!" while the audience caught the enthusiasm and flared into a "holy groove." The band played its energetic rock'n'pop "praise" music with an increased fury. At one point, the dam of enthusiasm burst as the crowd rushed to the front of the hall in full-body dancing like adoring fans celebrating their favorite rock band. Bleasdell would encourage the frolicking.

Bleasdell also employed the well-worn Pentecostal mesmerism: "some of you experience that you don't have a headache any more...raise your hand.", etc.,etc." At one point, Father Scanlon, obviously overwhelmed with enthusiasm, seized center stage and addressed the crowd as if in the grip of a dream: "I almost never get visions but I can see God's hand moving down inside of so many in this assembly and reaching in and grabbing the garbage... grabbing the garbage. (rising to a shouting crescendo) Let Him PULL IT UP! GET RID OF IT. SEND IT UP NOW -- SEND IT OUT. THE HOLY SPIRIT'S GONNA REPLACE IT! GARBAGE OUT -- HOLY SPIRIT IN!!" The crowd responded with "Praise God, Praise Jesus, Alleluia, Alleluia," There would be time for the entire congregation to join in "healing prayers."

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020510_BR_Charismatic_pr.html

Quote:
"Just what is Charismaticism and where did it come from? These are questions explored in John Vennari's new book, "Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement" which includes eye-witness accounts of some of the more bizarre "Christian" occurrences imaginable. From loud rock music to body convulsions to falling upon the floor "slain in the 'spirit'," this is a revealing and necessary look at Charismatic antics. The accounts and stories quickly go from silly to disturbing as the performers claim to receive messages directly from God and audience members receive the "gifts" of speaking in and interpreting "tongues." As noted researcher Msgr. Ronald Knox warns:

"To speak with tongues you have never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom of alleged diabolic possession."

[the808bass]

To speak with tongues you have never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom of alleged diabolic possession.

Good things the attendants at Acts 2 didn't pay heed to this researcher.

[Jael]

That was an insightful post. Thanks.

[the808bass]

things=thing

[Jael]

Actually, the tongues mentioned in Acts 2 are KNOWN languages, as evidenced by the chapter.

It is speaking in gibberish that is a hallmark of demonic possession.

[Maximilian]

Good things the attendants at Acts 2 didn't pay heed to this researcher.

Two points:
1. Most of this so-called "speaking in tongues" is totally fraudulent, as documented in the articles I posted, and numerous other places.

2. To the extent that it's real, then it really becomes scary. Wouldn't you agree that it would indicate some sort of supernatural inspiration? Now the apostles may have been inspired by God. But there's no indication that these people at the "Toronto Blessing" are.

Also, the apostles did not spout gibberish which they did not understand. They spoke normally but people of all lands understood them. So the keynote here is that EVERYONE understood what was being said, both the speaker and the hearers. The only miraculous part was that the speaker and the hearers spoke different languages.

Modern-day speaking in tongues is just the opposite: rather than everyone understanding, NO ONE understands what is being said, neither the speaker nor the hearers. If this be supernatural inspiration, my money is on demonic -- not divine -- inspiration.

[the808bass]

Actually, the tongues mentioned in Acts 2 are KNOWN languages, as evidenced by the chapter.

Of course, as I've noted to you before, that's not quite what the text says. It says that the hearer heard them praising God in their language. Two separate and distinct things. Not any more or less of a miracle than people speaking in languages they did not know.

To the extent that it's real, then it really becomes scary. Wouldn't you agree that it would indicate some sort of supernatural inspiration? Now the apostles may have been inspired by God. But there's no indication that these people at the "Toronto Blessing" are.

I would agree with both points. There is rather a large part of Pentecostalism (which I suppose would be separate by Charismaticism perhaps not so much in doctrine as in praxis and separated not so much by denomination but by praxis) which is not at all comfortable with the modern "manifestations" of the "spirit" but is quite comfortable with the supernatural at work in the daily life of the believer, including, but certainly not limited to the gift of tongues.

Modern-day speaking in tongues is just the opposite: rather than everyone understanding, NO ONE understands what is being said, neither the speaker nor the hearers. If this be supernatural inspiration, my money is on demonic -- not divine -- inspiration.

First of all, in almost every service I've been in where there has been loud speaking in tongues as a focal point of the service, there has been an interpretation of that message to the congregation. That would certainly not be "NO ONE" understanding. In the rare instance that there was no interpretation, the pastor would often give instruction to the congregation to weigh what just happened and weigh it against the Bible. Also, pastors would regularly rebuke (in private, but sometimes in public) a person who would abuse the "manifestation."

When I'm praying "in the Spirit" I'm not just shooting from the hip and saying "hope you can understand this, God." I know what I'm praying about. I know why I've come to God to speak with Him, whether it be intercession, praise and worship, or a request. So I certainly know what I'm praying about and to whom I'm praying.

The fact of the matter is that the nut jobs garner far more of the attention, but the praxis for years in Pentecostal churches is far less showy and crazy-whack than most people see.

[Ex-Wretch]

I grew up RC. I attended RC charismatic services. A lot of show. No deliverence from sin.

I have attended a full-gospel, non-denominational, holiness church for 17 years now. We would be fairly labeled as oldtime Pentecostal. Pentecost didn't die out in the first century. The Lord works with us and confirms His word. And, signs do follow the believer. Even today.

Many mocked Jesus when He spoke and performed miracles. Mostly, they were religious and hypocrites. Be very, very careful not to blaspheme the Holy Ghost. I have experienced personally, and have witnessed many "signs" spoken of in Mark 16. Because YOU do not believe does not change the fact that they 1) were promised 2) are real and 3) do occur.

Be therefore admonished. Your every thought, word and act are being recorded.