Posted on 11/22/2002 8:16:21 AM PST by WriteOn
A Calvinist who believes in Perservence of the Saints is in no better position then a Wesleyian.
A Calvinist has to prove with his works that he is saved, hence, you have a lot of work being done out of duty and fear not from love.
I believe in eternal security, based on union with Christ, not based on waiting to see if at the end of my life I did enough to prove to myself I was a member of the elect.
Amen!
A. A hijacking of the term grace.
Period. End of story.
Just more empty Calvinist rhetoric.
http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/TULIP.htm Perseverance of the Saints Will the saints endure to the end? Can we know if we are going to endure?
Perseverance of the Saints does not mean "once saved always saved". This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine. "Once saved always saved" is more keenly given the name "Perseverance of the sinner" instead of "the saint". For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and then still "persevere to the end". Perseverance of the saints does not teach this. Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire(emphasis added) to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end.
Yet, a Christian can fall into wicked sin
Article 4: The Danger of True Believers' Falling into Serious Sins Although that power of God strengthening and preserving true believers in grace is more than a match for the flesh, yet those converted are not always so activated and motivated by God that in certain specific actions they cannot by their own fault depart from the leading of grace, be led astray by the desires of the flesh, and give in to them. For this reason they must constantly watch and pray that they may not be led into temptations. When they fail to do this, not onlycan they be carried away by the flesh, the world, and Satan into sins, even serious and outrageous ones, but also by God's just permission they sometimesare so carried away -- witness the sad cases, described in Scripture, of David, Peter, and other saints falling into sins.
Article 5: The Effects of Such Serious Sins By such monstrous sins, however, they greatly offend God, deserve the sentence of death, grieve the Holy Spirit, suspend the exercise of faith, severely wound the conscience, and sometimes lose the awareness of grace for a time -- until, after they have returned to the way by genuine repentance, God's fatherly face again shines upon them.
So, a Calvinist must be really wait until the end of his life to be sure that he is a member of the elect, he after all, may fall into sin and never repent, showing that he was not a member of the 'elect' after all.
Article 9: The Assurance of This Preservation Concerning this preservation of those chosen to salvation and concerning the perseverance of true believers in faith, believers themselves can and do become assured in accordance with the measure of their faith, by which they firmly believe that they are and always will remain true and living members of the church, and that they have the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
So, if you as a Calvinist, have not this 'assurance' and are dealing with daily sins you are going to start doubting your salvation and start working harder to prove to yourself that you are really saved. (see #11 in the Canons of Dort)
perseverence of the saints as opposed to perseverence of the sinners. Do you use the expression "eternal security" or do the calvinists, or both? You would be the only to use "once saved always saved"....correct?
Thank you.
perseverence of the saints as opposed to perseverence of the sinners. Do you use the expression "eternal security" or do the calvinists, or both? You would be the only to use "once saved always saved"....correct?
Yes, I use the term 'eternal security'.
It is based on union with Christ, thus, it is unique to the Church age believer.
I forgot to address this.
Yes, that is the term we (Baptists) would use.
It is a term that the Calvinists reject, thus, by their own admission, their view of Perservence is different then our view of eternal security.
That is why it is called the perseverence of the saints..Gods grace and the indwelling Holy Spirit PRESEVE the elect
Your once saved always saved is a lie from the pit of hell...it allows a man to say a sinners prayer and then live like hell...and still believe he is saved..
If you have a problem with this quote of yours . Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire(emphasis added) to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end.
Perhaps you are not saved..and you are one of the OSAS deception..
This was not a discussion on OSAS, you said I did not understand Preservation of the Saints, which I do.
It means that if you fall into a wicked sin and do not repent, you were never the elect.
OSAS believes that one can continue in sin right through death,(1Jn.5:16, Acts.5) because of their own will rejects God. (1Thess.5:19 and Eph.4:30)
The Calvinist view of Preservation is an attempt at eternal security, but the Calvinists fearing antinomianism, added a works provision to it.
Have you ever read the parable of the prodical son or the lost sheep or coin? We have more faith than to believe that God would allow an elect child of his to not be brought back home..It is the Wesleyans that have that problem NOT the Calvinists
Don’t confuse the repentance of a backslider with an apostate returning to faith.
So tell me dec witch came first the doctrine of the reformers on the preservation of the saints or it's demonic OSAS counterfit?
Do not bother me anymore with your goofy posts.
Perservence of the saints teaches exactly what I said it did, if you fall into a sin and do not repent you were never elect.
OSOS teaches that one does not have to repent but can suffer the sin unto death.
What does it matter which doctrine came first?
Tell me which came first Predestination as taught by Augustine or that taught by Arminius?
Your nonsense view of Predestination was not taught by any major theologian until the 4th century.
As for OSOS, it is in the Bible, no matter who taught it or when.
There is a sin unto death and that sin is for believers who do not repent of their sins (1Jn.5:16)
As for the Wesleyians, they doubt that they can remain saved and are fearful of losing it.
The Calvinist, on the other hand, is afraid he might not have ever had had it.
Only time will tell, after all he may sin and never repent hence the term perservence of the saints and not eternal security of the saints.
Dear Friend,
‘I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.’ (Matthew 12:6).
"The Pharisees had confronted Jesus, accusing his disciples of desecrating the Sabbath by plucking grain. While purporting to keep faith alive, these serious-minded people had begun to destroy it with sterile practices, and routine procedures."
"To them, Jesus said," ‘One greater than the temple is here.’
"It was a shocking thing to say to ardent religionists. It was an offensive thing to say to people whose life revolved around the temple with its elaborate rituals and laws. There is no way around the sharpness of Jesus' critique. He was castigating the contraptions by which men and women seek to gain control of God; to secure his services, and guarantee his favor."
"The temple of pious practices and sophisticated symbols must be seen for what it is-a mere shadow of something far greater. God can not be contained by our religious forms, nor can he be managed by them. If we think so, we have repeated an age-old mistake."
"That temple must be... torn down---to make way for Jesus Christ."
"Contrary to what many have thought, faith does not come through doctrines, creeds, institutions and forms. Its origins are more mundane. It is born in the fact that men and women must live. They have to live in a universe that drives them to ask questions. What am I? Who is this person that I call me? Am I the sum of these wild impulses within myself, or am I really the noble creature I sometimes aspire to be? Why do I do things I despise, and why do I seek the destruction of those who offend me? Why am I here at this time, in this particular place, and not here at some other time and place? Can I be free of the many things that bind me, spirit and body?-guilt , fear, despair? Why is there so much pain?"
"Questions like these are the furnace out of which the golden treasure of faith is forged. The one who wrote: ‘In the beginning God,’ would not have done so if he had not first pondered why there was life. The Psalmist would not have sung, ‘The Lord is my shepherd,’ unless he had struggled with fear and futility. Job affirmed, ‘I know that my redeemer lives,’ after he struggled with the miseries of pain and injustice. Faith comes as men and women encounter God, in the questions raised by existence itself."
"When Jesus said, ‘One greater than the temple is here,’ he was drawing attention to himself as a surpassing religious center; a personal worship place, to which men and women might repair with their questions and longings. No other figure more thoroughly bespeaks human experience, than Jesus-especially on his cross. Naked, shamed, wounded in body, and tortured in spirit, he cries out: ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ Down into the abyss he goes, but in three days, he rises."
"This is why Jesus is greater than all other holy places, holy people and holy things. In him, questions, pain, even death become shining portals in the gloom. Utter calamity is transformed into utter blessing. The moment of despair is the birthplace of faith."
"May Jesus Christ, be Lord."
Yours in service,
Ron J. Allen.
"if you are not in the free grace camp how can you say that you don't have a "works"-based soteriology?"
If you believe in order to receive eternal life a work you do to gain a reward?
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