OSSUARY POSES PROBLEMS FOR CATHOLIC TEACHING

IntellectualConservative.com ^ | November 20, 2002 | J. Grant Swank, Pastor

[az4vlad]

Was Mary perpetually a Virgin? Are Catholics right to challenge people to be virgins for life like nuns and priests?

The box of bones is exciting as a "find." But for Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox theologians, it poses a real problem that could take some of the fun out of it.

These two branches of Christendom believe that Mary was perpetually a virgin. That is, obviously, she and husband Joseph never enjoyed God’s good gift of sex in marriage.

Of course, there is no biblical support for this. In fact, biblical support states that the two had sex. Matthew 1:25 states just that; that is, that after Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph enjoyed conjugal relations. Further, Mark 6:3 lists Jesus’ four brothers’ names, and mentioned that He had "sisters."

So there you have it. And when you have it, you can’t have it both ways.

Yet why is this perpetual virginity such a big deal to Catholic and Orthodox? Could it be because celibacy is such a big deal for priests and nuns? So youths are then challenged to be virgins for life like unto the Blessed Mother.

However, once again, there is no biblical backing for this. Instead, the Scriptures state just the opposite regarding Mary.

(The Orthodox believe that Joseph had James by a first spouse. After she died, he married Mary, she birthing only Jesus, thus remaining virginal for life. This is legend with no historical foundation.

Catholics footnote their Bibles by stating that Jesus had no brothers and sisters but that such scriptural statements refer to His cousins. The trouble here is that, in Greek, the terms for "brothers" and "sisters" is not the same as the term for "cousin.")

Other articles by Joseph Grant Swank can be found in the Men's News Daily archive. Therefore, when Andre Lemaire, a specialist in ancient inscriptions at France’s Practical School of Higher Studies, writes in Biblical Archaeology Review that there is very probably an authentic reference to Jesus of Nazareth on an ossuary—the box of bones—it sets up a major problem for Catholics and Orthodox.

The find was in Israel. It would give us the oldest archaeological evidence of Jesus Christ as an historical figure. "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" appears in Aramaic (the language of Jesus) on an empty ossuary—the limestone burial box for bones. Lemaire speculates its date to be 63 AD. He banks that the writing style sets the inscription smack in the time of Jesus and James, leader of the Early Church in Jerusalem.

He states that only 20 Jameses would have had Joseph as father and Jesus as brother in the holy city at that time. Further, inscribing the name of both father and brother on an ossuary was "very unusual." Therefore, this Jesus must have had some unusual notoriety.

Two Israeli scientists with the Geological Survey, having seen through a microscopic exam of the box, inform that there is "no evidence that might detract from the authenticity."

Josephus, first century Jewish historian, scribed that "the brother of Jesus. . .James by name" was martyred by stoning in AD 62. If his bones were stored in a box, such could date to AD 63.

The ossuary’s anonymous owner had not known the value of his possession until Lemaire examined it last spring. Mr. Anonymous says he does not want to deal with pesty reporters or the cost of insurance and protecting the artifact. We might also add that his anonymity will also keep the packs of excited theologians from his door...

[RnMomof7]

Christian Doctrine about Mary. Her words say one thing, her actions another....good job, Tantumergo

Correct that CG..to Catholic Doctrine about Mary

.Christian doctrine does not believe that Mary was the ark..The Jews to whom the ark was given believe it represented God among them ...Christians believe the Ark was a type of Christ ..and the bible you ignore says it is God

  2Sa 6:13   And it was [so], that when they that bare the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed oxen and fatlings.   
  2Sa 6:14   And David danced before the LORD with all [his] might; and David [was] girded with a linen ephod.   
  2Sa 6:15   So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
     2Sa 6:16   And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
     2Sa 6:17   And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

You have the freedom to make it a type of your goddess if you like..But God will not be mocked

    Exd 20:2   I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.      Exd 20:3   Thou shalt have no other gods before me.      Exd 20:4   ?Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
     Exd 20:5   Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

[Codie]

Didn't the fathers of the reformation (Luther, Zwingli, Calvin) hold the traditional Catholic version on Marian doctrine?

[FormerLib]

The grace of God leads men to salvation.

Can that grace work through you to lead someone to salvation?

I am no mans savior.

I never said you were, I asked if you try to lead your children, or anyone else for that matter, to salvation.

Yes or no?

[Catholicguy]

<>essentially, yes. However, the further one is removed from that revolt, the less one is required to believe and the more "authorities" there are<>

[Codie]

However, the further one is removed from that revolt, the less one is required to believe and the more "authorities" there are

I agree with you here.

I've read something in the past that stated they hardened their position on behalf of Marian devotion to counteract some Catholic exaggerations.Would you know what those exaggerations might have been?

[heyheyhey]

All ancient Christian Tradition highly respects virginity, and virginity for the sake of God's Kingdom especially. All who claim to be Christians generally accepts Our Lady's virginity at the birth of Christ. In the recent years some Christian denominations tend to denigrate the value of virginity lived for the sake of the Kingdom (married clergy, homo clergy, lesbian clergy). IMO, it is the very mindset from which they also denounce perpetual virginity of Our Lady.

Is it important to the faith? Yes, it is, just like our belief in the Communion of Saints, in Purgatory, in one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, primacy of the Bishop of Rome etc.
There is a saying: "He who is not Marian is Arian," meaning, without proper understanding and due respect for Mary one would be unable to grasp the divinity and the humanity of Christ -- rejection of Mary as an ever-Virgin Mother of God leads to a very deficient, or even heretical understanding of Christ our God and Savior.

If a Catholic did not believe in Mary's perpetual virginity, would that prevent the Catholic's salvation?

The question could be paraphrased, how much of the Catholic teaching can one reject (or not accept) without jeopardizing one's eternal Salvation?

I hope we both know the answer :-D

[Catholicguy]

<> Christian Doctrine has always been 100% truthful and bereft of any exageration. That is to be expected from the Church Jesus established to Teach all nations. The Triune God would not allow error or exageration to be taught as Doctrine.

It is true thqat individual Christians do err and due exagerate about certain aspects of Doctrine. That is to be expected. They have no Divine guarantee they will be infallible. I am not sure which exagerations made about Mary you might be referring to<>

[Tantumergo]

"I must say you are quite rerstrained"

I was inspired by your example a few weeks ago to tone down the polemic, and so have decided to try to be charitable with those with whom I disagree - without in any way compromising the truth - of course.

Thank you for convicting me of my sin! ;)

[Tantumergo]

"I think we see, as always, a faulty understanding of the Incarnation going on. Mom sees the Ark as Jesus, because she sees Jesus as a human who happens to be inhabited by God."

I think this is a very perceptive insight on your part Dave. Those old chestnuts just keep turning up again and again and again and again.............

[Codie]

It seems to me the main reasons for their denial of (Marian doctrine) aren't theological reflections, but a need for self-definition by way of differentiation.This is jmho of course.

[FormerLib]

In the recent years some Christian denominations tend to denigrate the value of virginity lived for the sake of the Kingdom (married clergy...

Careful there! The married clergy of the Eastern Orthodox Church and of the Byzantine Catholic Church do not denigrate the value of either virginity or chastity.

[heyheyhey]

The married clergy of the Eastern Orthodox Church and of the Byzantine Catholic Church do not denigrate the value of either virginity or chastity.

Correct!
They also accept the perpetual virginity of Our Lady.
But a candidate for bishop is chosen out of those priests who are celibate :-)

In my post #86 I should've put "divorced and remarried clergy" instead of "married" clergy. Sorry...

[RnMomof7]

Codie there is a difference in believing in the virgin birth (or perpetual virginity, which to me is a non issue one way or the other) and making her godlike .

Luther loved Mary ..BUT he was aware of the Catholic excesses

The year before he died, Luther said a "flagrant manner filled everything [in the church of his era] with the idolatrous worship of the saints.... And Mary was worshiped by all as a mediatrix and helper in all necessities."

Why did people flee from Christ to Mary? Luther saw a root of the problem in St. Bernard, who suggested "Christ is given to scolding and punishing, but Mary has nothing but sweetness and love." Thus, Luther noted, "People learned to say: 'Dear Mary, step forward in my behalf!' "

The Scriptures always point to Christ as the one who saves. Luther characteristically said: "Oh, how many kisses we bestowed on Mary! But she did not redeem and save me."

Mary isn't "a goddess who could grant gifts or render aid, as some suppose when they pray and flee to her rather than to God," Luther wrote. "She does nothing, God does all. We ought to call upon her, that for her sake God may grant and do what we request." Luther biographer, Martin Brecht, describes Luther's thoughts: Mary is "the model for believers, and, above all, the example of God's action. It is God's grace that we are to admire in Mary, nothing else."

To that I say AMEN It is one thing to honor her another to make her a God substitute

[RnMomof7]

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Says NOTHING about Mary or me lib..

[Codie]

THE PLACE OF MARY IN CLASSICAL FUNDAMENTALISM Rev. Peter Stravinskas

Part 1)

To discover the place of Mary in classical Fundamentalism1 requires one to move back to the Protestant Reformation, inasmuch as Fundamentalism regards itself as a direct descendant of that theological tradition, or as John Mark Reynolds puts it, Fundamentalists "are historic Protestants."

2 Our first concern, then, is to determine the status of Marian doctrine and devotion among the Reformers. Second, it is necessary to see if Fundamentalism is in continuity with its Reformation pedigree. The guiding hypothesis of this chapter is a modification of that of Charles Lees: "In modern dialogues between Catholics and their separated brethren, it is often ignored that, historically, the Protestant Reformers did not attack devotion to Our Blessed Mother; that such an attack came from their successors."

3 It is also the guarded conviction of David Wright that "the Churches that look back to the Reformers have on the whole been less affirmative about Mary than most of the Reformers themselves."

Do these comments have any merit?

[Catholicguy]

<>...self definition by way of differentiation....I like that; alliterative and mellifluous<>

[RnMomof7]

In modern dialogues between Catholics and their separated brethren, it is often ignored that, historically, the Protestant Reformers did not attack devotion to Our Blessed Mother; that such an attack came from their successors."

I am devoted to my dog..devoted means faithful..loving ..it does not mean that my dog is the Ark of the Covenant or a substitute Savior

Read this well codie

Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

God says that those that kneel down to graven images HATE Him.It is interesting that the Catholic Church played down the direct command in 20:5 by combining it with 4. But as you can see they are seperate commands so the reformers have a different list of the commandments from scripture. I would say to try to pretend it was not an issue is deceptive...Honor is one thing, Ark of Covenant / co redeemer is quite another..

[Codie]

God says that those that kneel down to graven images HATE Him.It is interesting that the Catholic Church played down the direct command in 20:5 by combining it with 4. But as you can see they are seperate commands so the reformers have a different list of the commandments from scripture. I would say to try to pretend it was not an issue is deceptive...Honor is one thing, Ark of Covenant / co redeemer is quite another..

Aren't we discussing established doctrine?

THE PLACE OF MARY IN CLASSICAL FUNDAMENTALISM Rev. Peter Stravinskas

The Protestant Reformation and Mary

1. Martin Luther

The lion's share of such a discussion must be centered on Martin Luther, inasmuch as he is commonly acknowledged as the "Father of the Reformation." Therefore, the question of the Reverend William Cole's magisterial article is quite : "Was Luther a devotee of Mary?" The Reverend Thomas O'Meara sets a sober tone for this process of discernment: During any discussion of Luther and the Blessed Virgin we must keep uppermost in our minds that there was development in his ideas, a change more or less drastic in each aspect of Marian theology. This development had its beginning in Catholicism; it passes through contradictions, struggles, and uncertainties, and terminates in a new Marian viewpoint, one which Luther decided was Christocentric, biblical, unexaggerated, and edifying.

[RnMomof7]

You can discuss doctrine if you like..I am addressing what God wants and expects..not the tradition of men...God hates graven images and people bowing to them..He hates those that put other gods before him

In his last days Luther saw the excess of the mariology...and he addressed it

Do not hang your ark on him cause it would be a no sale

From a Luthern answer site

Since prayer is worship (Luke 2:37), and since worship is to be offered only to God (Revelation 19:10), to offer prayer to anyone but God is idolatry. Luther, indeed, did have a high view of Mary, but only in a Biblical sense of honoring her memory as the human mother God used to bring his incarnate Son into this world. While there is nothing wrong with asking other Christians in this life to pray for us, we are never encouraged to pray to them. In fact, as Isaiah 63:16 indicates, the saints in heaven appear to have no direct knowledge of our daily lives. Their concern is rejoicing in the presence of God.

In addition, Mary is a forgiven sinner whose place in the family of God is founded on the grace of Jesus Christ just the same as ours. Praying to Mary obscures the beautiful truth that every believer has equal open access to the throne of God (Ephesians 3:12). It is slap in the face to God's gracious Fatherly love for us to pray as if we need Mary to intercede for us. Jesus Christ alone is our intercessor at the right hand of the Father (Romans 8:34).

[Codie]

I am addressing what God wants and expects..not the tradition of men

Do you know how creepy that sounds?