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To: sitetest
You must be joking. Criticizing the Novus Ordo and the Council and the Catechism leads to a schismatic mentality? LOL. Is Cardinal Ratzinger schimatic? Does he have a schismatic mentality because he criticizes the Novus Ordo openly and frequently? Is Atila Sinke Guimaraes schismatic for criticizing the Council for its many ambiguities and contradictions? Is it schismatic to point out the New Catechism teaches novelties differing on many points from past catechisms? None of these acts of criticism have ever been considered wrong or in any way improper. To use such an argument to suggest such criticism leads to a schismatic mentality, therefore, is not only obviously false, it is totally unreasonable.

For one thing, the SSPX does not question the validity of the New Mass, only its doctrinal deficiencies--something it has every right to do. For another, the SSPX does not question the authenticity of the Council, only its wisdom--something it has again the right to do. And since when is it schismatic to question a mere catechism? Criticism of the Novus Ordo especially is not only NOT tantamount to undermining the "unchangeable Catholic faith," it is absolutely necessary to do so if we are to extract the Church from its present crisis. The Novus Ordo has been criticized since the moment of its inception by eminent theologians, including those of the SSPX. Cardinal Ratzinger has himself made the claim that it is actually the Novus Ordo which has endangered the faith, not the other way around:
___________________________________________________________
Cardinal Ratzinger . . .
Blames Church Crisis On Liturgical Collapse

by Paul Likoudis

The unprecedented manner in which Pope Paul VI imposed the Novus Ordo of the Mass created tragic consequences for the Roman Catholic Church, says Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in his new autobiography.

Not only did the banning of the old Mass represent a severe departure from tradition, but the revolutionary manner in which the new Mass was imposed has created the impression that liturgy is something each community creates on its own, not something which "is given."

Rather than being a force for unity in the Church, the new Mass has been the source of liturgical anarchy, dividing Catholics "into opposing party positions" and creating a situation in which the Church is "lacerating herself."

Formally imposed after a six-month period of "liturgical experimentation" in which anything —and everything—did go, the Roman Catholic Mass has never attained a universality, stability—or even an element of predictably—for most Catholics around the world; but instead has been a stimulus for never-ending innovations—from altar girls to dancing girls to women priests.

While the Missal of Paul VI "brought with it some authentic improvements and a real enrichment," the banning of the old Mass caused some "extremely serious damages for us," he wrote in La Mia Vita, released in mid-April in its Italian translation.

"I was dismayed by the banning of the old Missal," he wrote, "seeing that a similar thing had never happened in the entire history of the liturgy....

"The promulgation of the banning of the Missal that had been developed in the course of centuries. starting from the time of the sacramentaries of the ancient Church, has brought with it a break in the history of the liturgy whose consequences could be tragic.... The old structure was broken to pieces and another was constructed admittedly with material of which the old structure had been made and using also the preceding models....

"But the fact that [the liturgy] was presented as a new structure, set up against what had been formed in the course of history and was now prohibited, and that the liturgy was made to appear in some ways no longer as a living process but as a product of specialized knowledge and juridical competence, has brought with it some extremely serious damages for us.

"In this way, in fact, the impression has arisen that the liturgy is 'made,' that it is not something that exists before us, something 'given,' but that it depends on our decisions. It follows as a consequence that this decision-making capacity is not recognized only in specialists or in a central authority, but that, in the final analysis, each 'community' wants to give itself its own liturgy. But when the liturgy is something each one makes by himself, then it no longer gives us what is its true quality: encounter with the mystery which is not our product but our origin and the wellspring of our life....

"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part upon the collapse of the liturgy, which at times is actually being conceived of etsi Deus non daretur: as though in the liturgy it did not matter any more whether God exists and whether He speaks to us and listens to us.

"But if in the liturgy the communion of faith no longer appears, nor the universal unity of the Church and of her history, nor the mystery of the living Christ, where is it that the Church still appears in her spiritual substance?," he asked.

Too often, Ratzinger lamented, "the community is only celebrating itself without its being worthwhile to do so."

The book's German title translates to: From My Life: Remembrances 1927-1977.

On at least two other occasions, Cardinal Ratzinger has criticized specific liturgical abuses, while on other highly publicized events, such as the Ordinations of seminarians into the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, he has praised the beauty of the old Mass.

But his newly released autobiography is the first prolonged lament over the wholesale replacement of one liturgy with another.

In 1969, Pope Paul VI issued his General Instruction of the Roman Missal, revising the Order of the Mass and related prayers. The old Mass rite was to be banned, with few exceptions, after a transition period of several months.

Although the Mass had undergone evolutionary changes through the history of the Church, there was always a sense of "continuity," Ratzinger wrote. Even Pope Pius V, who reworked the Roman Missal. in 1570 following the Council of Trent, allowed for the continued use of some liturgies with centuries-long traditions.

Cardinal Ratzinger said there "is need for a new liturgical. movement to call back to life the true heritage of Vatican Council II.

"For the life of the Church, it is dramatically urgent to have a renewal of liturgical. awareness, a liturgical reconciliation, which goes back to recognizing the unity in the history of the liturgy and understands Vatican II not as a break, but as a developing moment."

Pope Paul VI's new Mass has been a contentious issue in the Church since its introduction in 1969, not only fueling a bitter Church dispute involving the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who was excommunicated by Pope John Paul II in 1988, but prompting millions of Catholics to question the legitimacy—not only of the Mass, but of the Pope who approved it.

Even after Pope John Paul in his 1988 apostolic letter Ecclesia Dei called on his bishops to be "generous" in giving Catholics access to the Tridentine rite, in a compassionate gesture aimed at healing some of the divisions and discontent over the Novus Ordo, many bishops, and even cardinals, notably Detroit's Adam Cardinal Maida, have refused to accommodate the desires of Catholics for the old Mass.

212 posted on 11/15/2002 1:55:44 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
Dear ultima ratio,

"You must be joking."

No, just quoting the Vatican.

Now you're just trying to change the subject. You laughed at the term "schismatic mentality". I didn't make it up. I showed that it is a term used by the Church herself to describe what is happening over time to those who try to attach themselves to the SSPX. Now you are quibbling with the definition.

You want to argue about the definition citing this one and that. Those of us who have been conversing with you for any length of time are familiar with your inability to quote correctly, or correctly understand what folks are actually saying, as well as your sometime failure to actually quote a real quote.

Thus, wise people ignore your quotes and citations, having learned that they aren't what they seem to be. You use these citations like a drunk uses a lamppost, not for illumination, but for support.

I know that you think that your judgement is superior to that of the Catholic Church. I just don't agree with you.


sitetest

214 posted on 11/15/2002 6:00:58 AM PST by sitetest
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