Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
Heh, the venom's really flowing from those lips now. Care to back that doozy of an exaggeration up, ma'am?
The Scriptures teach that God makes His choice "for the pleasure of His will" Phil 2:13 is explicit:
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
And Eph 1:5, 9, and 11
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ... He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, ...
And Rom 9:11
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Autonomous man rebels against the concept that God as sovereign Creator does things for His own purposes and He doesn't have to seek our counsel or approval. At its heart, Arminianism falls prey to the desire of the sin nature to be sovereign.
Because capricious/whimsical implies a will that changes based upon changing desires. Because God is absolute and outside of space and time, He does not change. I submit to you that a will and "good pleasure" that has not changed since "before the foundations of the world" does not qualify as whimsical.
Obviously the first place to look is Genesis Chap. 3. God had created a place where He and His creation were in a harmonious relationship, and that relationship was broken through the actions of Adam and Eve. Now, while I certainly do not believe that Adam's (or Eve's) sin itself was passed on down through the ages even to us, I do believe that that relationship that existed between God and His creation was broken, and that brokenness has continually effected creation, especially down to us.
I mean, what is the Bible about, really, from beginning to end? It is about God's effort to deal with man's sin in a way that is both righteous and merciful and ultimately restores that broken relationship He had with His creation. We were created to be in the garden with God. And, since we are not, we are trying to recapture that relationship that we were created for with something, anything.
From there, I would point to Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-31. There are bucket-fulls of meaning here, but I think the over arching meaning, especially in light of its placement directly after the parables of the lost sheep and the lost coin, is that we too are children of the Father who have become lost and, after seeing our pathetic surroundings, where even the food of pigs start to look good to us, we come to the realization that there has to be something, somewhere, that is better that what we've got now. So, like the son who comes begging back to his father in the parable, we too come begging for something, anything, that will satisfy our needs.
From there I would point to Romans chapters one and two, which I had mentioned before. We are all given two lights of knowledge of God, the light of creation (Romans 1:20) and the light of conscience (Romans 2:14,15). This is everybody now, after the fall, from the tribesmen of Africa to the teacher at Berkley, all have some inner knowledge of God. Now, I would agree with you to a point that people are not looking toward the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as their source for their knowledge of God, but they are keenly aware that there is something beyond themselves and their physical realm. Like I said before, no anthropologist has ever come upon a tribe of atheists. Ever.
I'm sure I could find more, but that's basically the best I can do off the top of my head (I don't have access to my library at this very moment). But, just as a starting point, what do you think so far?
This is your spin, Steve, and the same old shallow excuses for the Calvinist neverending attack campaign. You claim you get to attack with falsehoods like "historical and doctrinal deceit that permeates".
If we so much as utter a peep about it, you get to attack again. Even a "defense" justifies the next attack, according to your post. Anything at all justifies the next attack. Same old garbage. Same old unregenerate behavior. You don't have any credibility except with fellow attackers.
A man does not learn truth by drinking from poisoned wells, nor should anyone expect to get the truth from one who seeks to poison their well.
So don't act like modern-day Pharisees with unending efforts to exclude. You only cut yourselves off.
I refer you to my #768, particularly the last three paragraphs.
As the Holy Spirit bears witness, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Lord's Restored Church, built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone.
That means we are Christians, even if we were to be alone in that category. But anyone who looks in faith and repentance to Christ, our Lord and God, for salvation is a Christian, no matter how much you deny it -- and they will be saved if they obey Him:
Luke 6:46-49
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 2:9-11
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1 John 3:24
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:1-7
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
D&C 82:10
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.
Matthew 18:3-4
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
1 Corinthians 3:3-4
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
I might agree with you if I could figure out what Bible you're using. The ones I've read don't say anything what you just explained.
A statement based upon 'facts' that have been shown countless times to be false.
Calm down Mom, no one is mocking God. RochesterFan said God did not act in a particular fashion. I merely posted the dictionary definition of the word RF used and said God’s actions seemed to fit the dictionary definition.
If you would like to question my salvation over that, then that is your prerogative. If you want to ask me questions based on that, fine, go ahead, I would love to talk to you. But I will not respond anymore to being yelled at and cussed at.
Becky
I DO see what you are saying, RF, and I am getting there! I have always had problems understanding predestination, but I do believe it. I ask questions merely in an attempt to help me understand it. (I also don't fully understand how God could create the world out of nothing, but I know He did! That's where faith in what God says in His Word must take over!)
Make no mistake...I am a born-again believer who believes God is sovereign.
So having a “will and ‘good pleasure’ that has not changed since ‘before the foundations of the world’” would be the same as having a fixed set of rules to make judgments by?
All whim and arbitrary come down to are not having a fixed criteria. Does God have a fixed criteria for deciding who is Elect and who is not?
Good Morining!
From the children of
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS ~
Steve,
Is it not the Lord who to purne his vineyard, By what authority does a stranger have in trying to hewd down one of the trees in the Lord vineyard?
Isaiah 55:8-11
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Rn you know I very rarely show up here anymore. But I must take issue with your attack on my friend, my brother, ksen.
Is he perfect? Far from it. Just like me. Just like you.
But ksen is, as David was, a man after God's own heart.
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