Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[ksen]

No, ksen, jude's statement is not extreme; it is at the heart of how a man approaches evangelism.

Hi Ambassador, pleased to meet you.

Would it be fair, in your view, for someone antagonistic towards Calivinism to make a ridiculous exaggeration about the consequences of Calvinistic beliefs and claim they were natural consequences of Calvinism?

[xzins]

Way to go, IFW. All one can ask is putting the cards on the table. You've done that.

So, do I understand you to say that restornu was accidentally closed and that IFW will be your permanent name from now on?

Many have confessed to multiple handles. I don't really mind as long as they're honest about it when detected. Many have wives, other family members who use FR. When they sign on, that's the handle that's up at the time. Easier to just post than go logout, login.

What denomination were you before LDS? Didn't you say you BECAME an LDS?

[Itsfreewill]

I was a mainline mutt, than around 12 I attened the Presbyterian Chruch, baptized at age 16 left at age 35!

[CCWoody]

You mean there's no donkeys in heaven?

• Exodus 13:13 But every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb; and if you will not redeem it, then you shall break its neck.

Now I wonder what this verse means.... Somehow, I don't think that the LORD has it in mind that the Jews break the necks of donkeys, despite the fact that a donkey is a ceremonially unclean animal. Hmmmm!

[Itsfreewill]

You mean there's no donkeys in heaven?

***

ARE YOU SURE IF AN ASP IS THERE WHY NOT A DONKEY!

ISAIAH 11

Stem of Jesse (Christ) shall judge in righteousness—The knowledge of God shall cover the earth in the Millennium—The Lord shall raise an ensign and gather Israel—Compare 2 Nephi 21.

1 AND there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the ASP, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

[SoothingDave]

I can't think of other religions that are saying they wish they could be rescued by Jesus....they all want to do it their way, I guess. In fact, I don't know of any of them that think the Jesus story is true. Ergo, in many ways it's a moot point.

Are you now joining the other side? Is it impossible that someone could be filled with the Spirit of Christ and still be ignorant of the "story" of Jesus and His name?

SD

[theAmbassador]

Would it be fair, in your view, for someone antagonistic towards Calivinism to make a ridiculous exaggeration about the consequences of Calvinistic beliefs and claim they were natural consequences of Calvinism?

Hey, it happens all the time. The majority of the venom I encounter comes from the Arminians. They just seem to take rejection of their humanism personally. Calvinists, OTOH, expect to be rejected. The true gospel of Biblical Calvinism is offensive; it divides and drives many away.

It also happens to be true that jude's comment is neither ridiculous or exaggerated. A great many Arminians are frozen by terror with regard to preaching the gospel to the lost. They happen to think that they should get them to a church and let the preacher do it. This way, they will not say anything wrong. Unfortunately, this is not the purpose of the church.

The real problem is in the fact that Arminians truly don't believe that man is dead; they don't realize that dead is hostility to God, not an inability to respond to God. They add to that the fact that they believe God can't interfere because the final choice must be the man's. Therefore, the burden falls upon 2 men to get it all right; one to preach and the other to hear. If one of them messes up, then there is no conversion.

All I can say is thank God for inconsistent Arminians who act like God is sovereign over salvation.

[SoothingDave]

The true gospel of Biblical Calvinism is offensive; it divides and drives many away.

This is so much codswallop as well. Calvinists go out of there way to be offensive and then congratulate themselves on being "oppressed" for God's sake. It speaks to the neurosis that requires constant re-assurance, and the deliverance from consequence that drives the believer.

SD

[xzins]

I'm not being argumentative, Dave, but I don't understand your point and question. Would you mind rephrasing and/or expanding? Thanks. Z

[The Grammarian]

Apparently Drj. still thinks that "helkuo" always means 'drag.' Maybe in Attic Greek, but the New Testament wasn't written in Attic; it was written in Koine. See again Free Grace or Forced Grace?

[JesseShurun]

Issachar is a strong-boned donkey".

Now what was so special about Issachar that he was so highly regarded? If you know the old T you know. Calling someone a donkey in this context is a compliment. Maybe the fake Jew knows.

[SoothingDave]

No problem. In order to be "saved" by Jesus is it absolutely necessary that one be aware of the Jesus story and to know Jesus' name?

Or could one living in ignorance (through no fault of his own) be filled with the Spirit of God, be a member of the Body of Christ, be "saved", be "elect," whatever, without knowing the story or name?

Does being "saved" require this knowledge?

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Maybe the fake Jew knows.

Listen bud, angelo is a JEW, I and many others have known him for over a year and a half, and we know him as a man of honor, hes not a Christian, but he is a man of his word, and we all respect him for that, if you continue to slander him, you do do at your own risk.

BigMack

[ksen]

All I can say is thank God for inconsistent Arminians who act like God is sovereign over salvation.

Ok, then I can guess I can thank God for the inconsistent Calvinists who act like they need to present the Gospel to the lost in order to give them a chance to hear. ;^)

[JesseShurun]

Someone can claim all sorts of things for whatever reason. If he has read the OT "thoroughly" as he claims, let him defend himself. If your hobby is bullying, take it to the back room.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Ok, then I can guess I can thank God for the inconsistent Calvinists who act like they need to present the Gospel to the lost in order to give them a chance to hear. ;^)

LOL...how come their talking to us if were not the CHOSEN ONES anyway? Seems like a waste of time to me. :)

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Someone can claim all sorts of things for whatever reason. If he has read the OT "thoroughly" as he claims, let him defend himself. If your hobby is bullying, take it to the back room.

He can defend himself quite well in the OT, he doesn't need me for that, I don't agree with him, but I don't slander him because of it like you have, BIG difference bud.

BigMack

[JesseShurun]

This has nothing to do with you buttinsky so go harrass someone else. I'll wait while he does a google search but he won't find the answer. He claims to have read the OT "thoroughly" and he claims that I have not. Therefore let him answer a simple question and "well known" answer about one of the 12 tribes. If that's slander, then he has slandered me and we're even.

[ksen]

Maybe the fake Jew knows.

Maybe you'd like angelo to walk around like this in order to prove he is Jewish to you:

Question angelo's knowledge of the OT all you want, but to call him a "fake Jew" is extremely offensive.

[JesseShurun]

Ok, I won't call him fake anymore, but his claim to have "thorough" knowledge of the Holy Torah I am calling fake until he proves otherwise. This question about one of the twelve tribes is basic knowledge. Perhaps it will provoke him to jealousy to actually study the Word, something that he should have a true passion for already. For my money, I'll say that the calvinist Woody finds it first.