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Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives
Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain

VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.

His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.

The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."

His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:

• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.

• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.

• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.

• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."

'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."

Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.

His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.

"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.

But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.

"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."

According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.

"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."

Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.

What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.

For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.

9/11 opportunity lost

The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.

"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.

This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.

Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.

The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.

"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."

With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.

The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."

Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: not; transforminglives
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To: SoothingDave
You didn't answer the question. Are there no Jews who got saved? If there were Jews who got saved before Jesus came to earth, how did they get saved?

Dave ...you are my friend ...but friend you do need to read the Bible..

The problem with Catholics is they want to be spoon fed...alot of the milk falls off the spoon on the way to your mouth:>)

Go read Hebrews 11..

801 posted on 10/03/2002 9:06:14 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I don't see anything about Abimelech and the Philistines of Gerar being "pagans" (at this point in history) in this passage. If I have missed it, you are welcome to point it out to me; but I don't think that we should be reading "pagan" into the passage if it is not there.

We are in the middle of studying Genesis in our church.

OP is entirely correct. In fact, by the chronologies given in Genesis, Shem, Noah's son, is still living at the time Abe goes to Gerar.

802 posted on 10/03/2002 9:10:27 AM PDT by xzins
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To: SoothingDave
So no Jew ever got saved? Why can't an aborigine be considered under the sme rules as Jews before the coming of Christ? To them, being in ignorance, it is like Christ never came. Or do you need to know that God condemns someone?

I didn't say Jesus wasn't essential. Stop lying.

Did I misunderstand you I thought you said that the pagans and the Jews could be saved without hearing about Christ and accepting Jesus? Did I misunderstand you?

803 posted on 10/03/2002 9:10:39 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
"Saved" means exactly what the Coast Guard does in the middle of a hurricane when it goes out to rescue a small boat that is in danger of sinking. They reach the small boat and then they rescue the people off of that boat. Those people have been "saved" from the storm. It really has nothing to do with them being "acceptable to the Coast Guard." The issue is that even if they were drug runners they had just been "saved."

Except dead men can not reach for that life preserver

804 posted on 10/03/2002 9:13:08 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: SoothingDave
I would rather be rescued.

I can't think of other religions that are saying they wish they could be rescued by Jesus....they all want to do it their way, I guess. In fact, I don't know of any of them that think the Jesus story is true. Ergo, in many ways it's a moot point.

But God has always been willing to allow folks to try to live a good enough life to earn their way to heaven, enlightenment, righteousness, etc.

I'd rather get rescued, though. Seriously. I screw up far too often.

805 posted on 10/03/2002 9:14:33 AM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
When the coast guard throws you the life preserver attached to a rope, they have woken you up about being rescued. You see the situation before you. You choose to grab it or not.
806 posted on 10/03/2002 9:18:49 AM PDT by xzins
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To: JesseShurun; angelo
The fact that you confuse the virgin birth with a human woman...

You better study up some more.....Mary was a human woman.

807 posted on 10/03/2002 9:22:34 AM PDT by ksen
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To: xzins; RnMomof7
Dead men don't grab the life presever!
808 posted on 10/03/2002 9:24:20 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: xzins
Actually the image is not a life preserver tossed by the Coast Guard. It is of a fisherman casting a net and dragging us in the boat.
809 posted on 10/03/2002 9:27:50 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
hey, drj, rn already beat you to it with an identical comment. I responded in 806. But why not throw out the baby with the bathwater?

saved = rescued

are we ok that far?
810 posted on 10/03/2002 9:27:58 AM PDT by xzins
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To: drstevej
hardly.

it'd take an amyraldian to think fish want to be rescued from the water.

they want to be rescued from the frying pan. go build an analogy around that.
811 posted on 10/03/2002 9:30:35 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; RnMomof7
The analogy was from Jesus' words. The natural man doesn't want to be rescued from sin either.

Billy Carter was once asked if he went to AA to give up drinking. He said, "No, I just wanted to learn to be a social drinker rather than an alcoholic."
812 posted on 10/03/2002 9:34:41 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: xzins; RnMomof7
***hey, drj, rn already beat you to it with an identical comment.***

The confirmation of two witnesses, xzins!
813 posted on 10/03/2002 9:36:08 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
You know what they say about "great minds" :>)
814 posted on 10/03/2002 9:43:07 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drstevej
The analogy was from Jesus' words

This I gotta see. Give me chapter and verse where Jesus tells a story about rescuing fish from the water.

815 posted on 10/03/2002 9:45:16 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Fallen man is not "drowning " he is already dead X



Matthew 8:22 - "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead."

Romans 11:15 - "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?"

John 11:25 - "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live "

Luke 15:24 - "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."
816 posted on 10/03/2002 9:46:09 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; drstevej; SoothingDave
i can see you all are in argumentative mode.

saved = rescued

and you want to argue about the Coast Guard saving living or dead people from a sinking vessel based on a simple illustration.

Effectively, I can say you've missed the point. I pray it was accidental.

I've got to go buy some beans to grind in my coffee mill. See ya in a couple hours.
817 posted on 10/03/2002 9:52:09 AM PDT by xzins
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To: ksen; jude24; RochesterFan; drstevej; Wrigley; RnMomof7

That point is just as extreme as those who point out that if someone were consistent in their Calvinism then why bother evangelizing at all. -- ksen

Arminianism: We believe in the power of dry bones to hear. Therefore, by faith in ourselves and man, we preach to the sick.

Calvinism: We believe in the power of God to give dry bones life. Therefore, by faith in God alone, we preach to the dead.

No, ksen, jude's statement is not extreme; it is at the heart of how a man approaches evangelism.

818 posted on 10/03/2002 9:52:48 AM PDT by theAmbassador
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To: drstevej; Wrigley; RnMomof7; xzins; CubicleGuy; Grig; Utah Girl; rising tide; White Mountain
Steve yes my own words condem me, yes I did confessed and apologzied to all. The reason I did not close IFW at the time I felt I would never use anymore. So I just dismissed it!

When you question it I realized I had private mail I did not want to lose.

As you insist I did ask for Itsfeewill closed, accept restornu was closed. I don't care I like IFW.

This all started because I said you have pure rancor in your soul, and that ire and love cannot dwell together. As you continue to lecture the LDS, but we are not allowed to have a voice in showing you how your contempt for another is not of God.

Many accepted my apology, but the first opportunity that you felt offend, you took my apology and tried to condemn me with it!

Well I unleast this tirade from you Steve, many of you have
said you accepted my apology, or no problem, or many have multi names etc. Will I had ended and cleansed this charade!

I do feel good for I had cleared the air! And if you continue to knock my faith, it rest on you!

Now about underroo, I knew I saw that name on FR, you knew I did too accept it was not your handle it was a post that undermind the LDS garments with pictures, you Steve had many opportunies to inform me that UNDERROO, was post about underroo/underware, not a handle.

I really don't like spin, but I became pretty annoyed for no matter where I posted be it on religion forum or another I had a shadow! When I was another name I had no stalkers. It was nice to enjoy FR with out contention! When I was restornu I was a straight shooter, yet as another name I was out from under the oppression that many of you like to inflick.

I know it is not of the Lord. I am sorry for now you have ammunition to beat up the LDS more. I have offended my sisters and brothers and made the road here a little harder. In away it is hypocrital for those of you know who have other handles on FR.

I promise not to violate the rules here again, I am sorry I did not closed one of them, but I know and the Lord knows I was not going to use it again. Now it is only by default I am now IFW.

I apologzied to you Steve for MY misunderstanding for saying you had multiname here on FR!



819 posted on 10/03/2002 9:57:23 AM PDT by Itsfreewill
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To: Itsfreewill
Way to go, IFW. All one can ask is putting the cards on the table. You've done that.

So, do I understand you to say that restornu was accidentally closed and that IFW will be your permanent name from now on?

Many have confessed to multiple handles. I don't really mind as long as they're honest about it when detected. Many have wives, other family members who use FR. When they sign on, that's the handle that's up at the time. Easier to just post than go logout, login.

What denomination were you before LDS? Didn't you say you BECAME an LDS?

820 posted on 10/03/2002 10:04:23 AM PDT by xzins
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