Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
No, I agree with that. Where do you see a conflict? We have free will to choose good or evil, but of course we wouldn't have either life or free will if God had not given it to us.
Nope, when the Rapture hits I have a feeling you'll be going. ;^)
That is because you are blind and deaf to the Torah. I'm gonna pray that you repent of your idolatry and convert to Judaism. We don't normally proselytize, but in your case I'll make an exception. ;o)
The Bible answers that Dave
Do you mean did God know that the Jews (and you and I ) could not keep the Law..yes he did
The The Law and its moral commands shows us the way of righteousness and holiness. All we have to do is never sin, and keep the Law perfectly at every point without fault and we will merit a true holiness before God.
The Law was the school master..It showed man how sinful he was ...and that NO man could keep the law perfectly no matter how hard he tried. Without the law there is no sin..Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; James 2:10 states, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." If you attempt to keep the Law and fail, if you stumble at one point, you will spend eternity under the wrath of God for being disobedient to His Law.
The law pointed us to Christ the only one that could keep the Law
So do you believe that all men will go to heaven? Will we be sharing rooms with Hitler?
Did Jesus not reclaim His authority in His kingdom when he rose from the dead...death where is your victory??
Perhaps I missed something, but your answer earlier:
By that definition, I will stipulate that Noah had his own righteousness that was not from the grace of God. I do not believe that God's favor for Noah was unmerited.
Seemed to be saying that Noah had merit that was not a gift from God. You know I do not consider us passive vessels, and that we and God work together. But this struck me as strange.
Even if we grow our talents and gain merit by this, the seed, the original talent was still from God.
SD
That is wonderful. I wish more churches would understand their responsibility to feed the sheep. Denton Bible church (in Denton, Texas) has about 4000 members, and has become huge because of sound, often quite complex Biblical teaching. They do not have an altar call.
Sure. Where "all" means "all":
Let them know that thou alone,
whose name is the LORD,
art the Most High over all the earth. (Psalm 83:18)
Where "all" is not literally "all":
I will bless the LORD at all times;
his praise shall continually be in my mouth. (Psalm 34:1)
1. Do you believe that you have free will?...YES
So you can freely choose to do good?
3. Was Noah a righteous man?..God declared him righteous ..so He was righteous
He was righteous just because God declared him to be? Could God have just declared Cain righteous?
4. 3. What did God mean when he said "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse"(Deuteronomy 30:19)? It was a call to save themselves by perfectly keeping the law of God perfectly and then they would have life . Could they ? Did they?
It was a call to choose to do good. Does man always choose to do good? No. But that does not mean that we don't have a choice.
I have no righteouness (right standing with God on my own)
Without going into detail, what have you done to make yourself so "filthy"?
As a Christian, what do you do to obtain forgiveness when you sin?
No. (Remember, I don't believe in an eternal hell). Those who die lacking righteousness must atone for their sins in Gehinnom before they can enter the presence of God.
First, I don't accept the gospels as canonical, so I do not accept everything that it says as "gospel truth". Second, just because someone claims to be Lord and God does not make him so.
If a prophet arises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder,
and the sign or wonder which he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, `Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, `and let us serve them,'
you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him, and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and cleave to him. (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)
The Lord Jesus Christ wept over Jerusalem and testified, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not (Mt. 23:37). He would; they would not. There is no irresistible grace here.
He said to the stubborn Pharisees, "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 6:40). He would have given these lost men life, but they would not come. He would; they would not. There is no irresistible grace here, either.
That God's grace can be resisted and refused is a matter of Scriptural record from Genesis to Revelation. Cain refused God (Ge. 4:5-16); men living during the Great Tribulation will also refuse God (Re. 9:20-21; 16:9,11).
Men have been foolishly refusing and rejecting God's call for the entire, wretched, 6,000 years of human history.
Away with any man-made teaching which denies these plain statements of Scriptures. Someone might say, "I can explain those Scriptures." Away with that, too. I don't want anyone explaining away the plain teaching of the Word of God. The Bible requires careful interpretation, it is true, but if we can't take the Word of God at face value, in context, there is no way we can dogmatically know what it is saying.
BigMack
I'm sorry, I've been away and am just skimming through various new articles and posts to catch up...and I also know that this wasn't addressed to me...and I know that this wasn't the main topic you were discussing...however...
I've watched you use this quote, or variations on it, in many different instances, I assume to promote your belief in the total depravity of man. But, the more I think about this, and the more I try to relate it to the real world, it just doesn't ring true.
I mean, just a cursory glance through different cultures of the world would show that seeking after God is something that people from around the world engages in quite a lot, in fact. I mean, how many world religions can you think of: Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism (yes, has simple philosophical roots but it is basically a world religion now), Shinto, Bahai, Zoroastrianism (I know there are a few still out there) just to count a few major world religions. Then, from there, we could count the myriad of more localized tribal or natural religions.
Now, before I go further I of course need to make the disclaimer that I do not believe that any of these religions will lead a person directly to Jesus Christ and a saving faith in Him. However, these are, in and of themselves, faiths in some form of a god (small g). If you were right, and no man truly seeketh after God (in the way that you are using this verse), then the world should be void of temples, mosques, churches, alters, rings or whatever people would use to seek out answers from a divine, otherworldly source. But the world is not void of these; in fact, the world is brimming with these. People around the world, and throughout time, have sought to find some answers about the meaning and purpose of their lives here on earth, and while some have looked inwardly, most have looked outwardly (upwardly) to seek, desperately seek, God.
Now, if you want to say that most people don't want to know Jesus specifically, but want their own version of God, well I would tend to agree with you on that. I would probably go one step further and say that most of those who call themselves Christians don't want to really know Jesus specifically, which, by the way, is really what Barna's research is showing and showing quite well. But to use that quote so somehow suggest that all people are one small step away from eating each others raw flesh (which, I think, you alluded to in one post somewhere), I think you are wrong. Someone said that we have a God-sized hole in us, and I believe that completely. We were created to be relational beings and, ultimately, be in relationship with our Creator, and no amount of corruption from the Fall can take that most elemental purpose of our nature out of us.
Sorry if this came out of the blue, but I just really had to say it.
All men are free to choose to do good or to do evil. No man is enslaved to sin. Any man can repent his sin and turn to God for forgiveness.
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. (2 Chronicles 7:14)
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