Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.

His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.

The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."

His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:

• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.

• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.

• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.

• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."

'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."

Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.

His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.

"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.

But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.

"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."

According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.

"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."

Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.

What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.

For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.

9/11 opportunity lost

The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.

"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.

This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.

Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.

The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.

"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."

With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.

The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."

Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?

[malakhi]

BTW, if you are willing to learn something about 1 Ti 2:1-6, I might be willing to post something about it tonight.

I dunno, Mack. Do you think we are worthy?

[CCWoody]

You are actually making my point for me about Psalm 14.

Actually, she is making her point about the Greek word pa'ß and not the Hebrew word yachad {yakh'-ad}

The Greeks had no word to mean some. pa'ß has some 7 or 8 senses and the meaning must always be derived from the context to find out if it means all without exception or some.

Now, I will stipulate that Psalm 14 is talking about all the workers of iniquity and not the people of the LORD. But, hey, are you are willing to stipulate for the record that the patriarch David had his own righteousness that did not come from the LORD?

[RnMomof7]

So then context has no signifigance? All always means all? When the whole world went to the place of their fathers birth for Ceasars census my gentile folks went too ?

[glory]

Hey, count me in on that too. Although I have returned to the church I was baptized in as a baby, it came with a long exhaustive study outside of the "the church" to do so. And even after that I have not found the perfect man made church, because there isn't one, so I've settled on the man made church where I worship God on Sundays and make fellowship with other Christians and keep in my heart the fire of God's truth and share it with my children. I'm hoping that through this imperfect vehicle, the Lord is planning to do some work through me there. Sadly though, if the Christian churches keep going the way they are, I can't see much of a choice but to home church as weird as that seems to me now.

[SoothingDave]

context ..

Not buying that, Mom. You interpret it as it suits your theology.

That's what I said. And everyone does it. The question is whom do you trust to guide you in discerning "context?"

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I dunno, Mack. Do you think we are worthy?

Only if we sacrifice a goat before we go.

BigMack

[glory]

Looking forward to it personally:-)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

That's what I said.

Won't they play with ya? :)

BigMack

[xzins]

We're talking about romans 4, Rn, so we're talking about the same believing that paul is talking about.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I have a big God, a sovereign God, but I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. The Bible says God would have all men be saved. I believe that. The Bible says man can say no to God. As amazing as this seems to me, I believe it. If God wants to give man the potential to resist Him and to reject Him and to say no to Him, who am I to say this detracts from His sovereignty or makes Him any less Almighty God? It does not detract from His sovereign power one iota.

BigMack

[xzins]

Did I make my faith in the basement? Where does my faith come from?

First, Rn, we are talking about the verse Ro 4:5 that says, However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

The ability to have faith is given from God. The ability to repent is granted by God. God's doing us a favor is clearly a gift from God, therefore, grace is a gift from God. Remember Ro 4:4? Now when a man works, his wages are NOT credited to him as Grace, but as an obligation. In other words, justification does not involve God owing us something. Rather, God does us the favor of allowing us to be justified by faith....if we will only believe. Then, we "believe God and it is credited to us as righteousness."

Man exercises the God given ability to have faith when he believes in Christ and is saved.

[RnMomof7]

Only if we sacrifice a goat before we go.


not funny Mack...This is about eternity and the gospel..

 
  Hbr 10:4   For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
  
  Hbr 10:5   Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
  
  Hbr 10:6   In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
  
  Hbr 10:7   Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
  
  Hbr 10:8   Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
  
  Hbr 10:9   Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
  
  Hbr 10:10   By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

Anyone including our friend Ange is lost without Christ

[malakhi]

why do some believe and some not, even if the flames of hell are lapping around them.

Sorry Mom, I'm not gonna slog through all your cut-and-pastes. If you want to say something to me, use your own words or paste something of reasonable brevity. From what gathered as I skimmed through your posts, they are all talking about promises God made to people about things that will happen in this world. This is far different from a predestined eternal fate.

Specifically WRT your above question, I did answer you previously. People can choose to do good or to do evil. They choose to do evil for selfish reasons -- mostly for immediate gratification. They make a choice to do evil; they could have chosen otherwise. Did threats of punishment always get your children to do the right thing when they were little? Or did they often go and do what they wanted regardless?

Since I don't believe in an eternal hell, such fear of punishment does not motivate me anyway. I'd rather people obey God out of love than submit out of fear.

[CCWoody]

By that definition, I will stipulate that Noah had his own righteousness that was not from the grace of God. I do not believe that God's favor for Noah was unmerited.

Which is exactly why you reject Jesus who is both Lord and Christ. You believe that your standing before the LORD is based upon your own merit; that you have obtained righteousness through observance of the Law.

You believe that you do not need this "salvation" which the gentiles here speak because you believe that you already have it. In this way, all the gentiles who have preached the gospel to you have done you a great harm because they have not really preached the good news promised in the Law and the Prophets.

Let me say that the LORD has raised up for us of the fruit of the patriarch David's body Jesus and that Man is sitting on the throne of David.

[RnMomof7]

The Bible says God would have all men be saved.

So then all men including Ange and the Mormons and the JWS are saved??

It detracts from His glory when you castrate Him and say he can only act if you let him

You are an Arminian..

Salvation = Good service+ good alltar call + "Just as your are" sung on key+ Macks free will choice + gods grace = salvation


You have a cross that saves everyone and saves no one...it offers only the opportunity for you to save yourself

Even when I was a Wesleyan..I used to weep with the knowlege that Jesus saw my name and my sin before him on the cross...I never knew you all believed that he just died as a door man

Silly me I believed Hebrew 1 when it said He finished the work of salvation
  
  Hbr 1:3   Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on

[glory]

Very well said. I have to say, my faith is much like yours, living, breathing, and growing. Some of the things you said about having another conversion made me think fondly on communion. I feel this way particularly each time that I take it.

[glory]

Btw, I was just talking to a friend about the trend in parenting. Couples, even non Catholics, being more likely to use NFP vs artificial bc, have bigger families, a stay at home parent, and effective, biblical discipline.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

not funny Mack...This is about eternity and the gospel..

I thought it was, what ya say angelo?

Anyone including our friend Ange is lost without Christ

And you think angelo is so dumb he has to be told this? And with a attitude to boot? Ya need to climb down off you're high horse, and show us some of that Christian walk you have been talking about. And don't give me that crap about how the Word makes people mad, angelo has read the New Testament and knows what it says about what he has done, and it probley has made him mad, thats between him and God, you're just driving him further away, not closer. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

BigMack

[malakhi]

But, hey, are you are willing to stipulate for the record that the patriarch David had his own righteousness that did not come from the LORD?

God gave us His Law to teach us what is good. When we obey Him, we are righteous. When David obeyed God, he was righteous. When he sinned, he lost his righteousness. When he repented and returned to the Law, his righteousness before God was restored. His obedience and his sin were his own choices. So yes, it was up to him.

[malakhi]

So then context has no signifigance? All always means all?

I agree with you that "all" does not always mean "all". I disagree with you about what passages should be interpreted with absolute literalness.