Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[malakhi]

IF God wanted too, do you think He could have given us freewill to choose? Do you think that if He gave everyone free choice He could have foreknew who would accept and who would reject, then use that knowledge to forward His plans? Would that be possible for a sovereign God?

Oooooooooh, good question, Becky! If God is absolutely sovereign, as the Calvinists, say, then of course he would have the power and authority to do precisely what you say. To say otherwise would be to undermine the claim of His absolute sovereignty.

[Woodkirk]

But weren't OT saints saved at the cross despite what would have
transpired in the future?

[malakhi]

How about this for an answer? This question, about which endless bickering ensues, is framed from our point of view, not from that of God's. The answer is not one or the other, but a curious and mystical mixture of both.

I know, I know ... its a mystery. ;o)

[Elsie]

The confirmation of your election is your progress in sanctification. God predestined all the elect to be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom. 8:29). Therefore, the reassuring evidence of our election is Christ-likeness.

---

BUT.......

WHY does it need to be confirmed?

WHY does it need to be reassured?

[SoothingDave]

Rn is mischaracterizing the free choice (Arminian) position for effect....clear contrast. Actually we believe that man is dead from the fall. We believe not that he has enough spiritual life left to desire God, but that the Lord enlivens him to see the choice before him. In that momentarily enlivened/enlightened state he can see clearly to make a choice. (We call that prevenient grace....God's grace that comes before salvation.)

How close is this to the Catholic position that man's nature is fallen, but that he is not absolutely depraved?

Pretty darn.

I would say that God gives each person a measure of grace sufficient for them to choose to come to God. Obviously, to some He gives more, but there is a minimum grant to everyone. And a sufficient grant it is.

So the "fault" for those who reject God rests with the person, not with God. God gave sufficiently, man rejected.

Contrast this with my impression of Calvinism, that God simply does not will the salvation of some and never gives them grace or "stirs" them or "regenerates" them or whatever. God simply does not desire them to be saved and that's the way it is and we are not to quesiton it.

SD

[malakhi]

Becky every man does have free will...but man will never will to choose God

And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)

[xzins]

We draw a distinction between "total" depravity and "ultimate" depravity.

In other words, not every "sinful" creature MUST behave like Jeffrey Dahmer or Adolf Hitler. Also, "total" being different from "ultimate" depravity allows for recognizing that, for example, the love of a mother for her children, is a positive residue that abides within us by the grace of God.

Perhaps what we mean by "ultimate" is the same as what you mean by "absolute." I would guess that it does.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Have you noticed these questions have been passed over and not answered:)

Becky

[RnMomof7]

You did not aswer the question, and you are mischaracterizing what I am saying.

No Becky the problem is I am making you think about what you are saying

If you are reading the scripture correctly then every one is saved.,..as God always accomplishes what He desires. So if God desires every man to be saved that all must be saved period

If the only ones that were saved at the cross were those that would in the future seek Christ and chose him..it is possible that Jesus died for no one..

Paul tells us that in Romans

     Rom 3:10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:   

  Rom 3:11   There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

     Rom 3:12   They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So if the dead man can not and does not seek after God..How is anyman at all saved?

It is a divine act of Gods grace that draws us Becky...HE is the AUTHOR (yes it is a written script as xzins says) and the finisher ('It is Finished") of our faith.

[RnMomof7]

I am a nurse xzins . I was never able to make a dead man take his medicine so he would be healed..

[RnMomof7]

It is a testimony to the power of God ..or do you believe you are saved by your works?

[malakhi]

You did not aswer the question, and you are mischaracterizing what I am saying.

No Becky the problem is I am making you think about what you are saying

Mom, I think you are misreading what Becky said. To repeat, she said:

Everyone who is saved is saved by what Jesus did on the cross.

How do you get from this statement to calling her a universalist?

So if God desires every man to be saved that all must be saved period

Does God always get what He wants?

[RnMomof7]

I would say that God gives each person a measure of grace sufficient for them to choose to come to God. Obviously, to some He gives more, but there is a minimum grant to everyone. And a sufficient grant it is.

So then Gods grace just doesn't work on every one ?Maybe he should have given a litte more to some folks huh?

[RnMomof7]

Why do some choose and some not Angelo that is the question at hand..what is the difference?

[malakhi]

So then Gods grace just doesn't work on every one ?Maybe he should have given a litte more to some folks huh?

1. If God is absolutely sovereign, does He not then have the power and authority to give us free will?

2. Does God always get what He wants?

[RnMomof7]

In other words, not every "sinful" creature MUST behave like Jeffrey Dahmer or Adolf Hitler. Also, "total" being different from "ultimate" depravity allows for recognizing that, for example, the love of a mother for her children, is a positive residue that abides within us by the grace of God.

I say in our unregenerated heart we are all Jeffery Dahmer and we are all Hitler...The difference is the restraing force of Gods grace...

[malakhi]

Why do some choose and some not Angelo that is the question at hand..what is the difference?

The difference comes down to free will. We have in our nature both good impulses and selfish impulses. God tells us what is good, but He gives us the choice as to which we choose.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live (Deuteronomy 30:19)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Rom. 9:29 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Faith Leaves it as the mystery of God's sovereignty and accepts it in humble obedience.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

I would say that God gives each person a measure of grace sufficient for them to choose to come to God. Obviously, to some He gives more, but there is a minimum grant to everyone. And a sufficient grant it is.

So then Gods grace just doesn't work on every one ?Maybe he should have given a litte more to some folks huh?

Look up "sufficient." Or are you arguing that God should give everyone irresistable grace and save us all?

The issue here, as always, is that some internal mechanism makes Calvinists deny their own free will, to abdicate total responsibility to God. This makes them feel secure, apparently, to know that what they do matters not "one whit" towards their salvation. It is a very special kind of freedom.

SD

[malakhi]

I say in our unregenerated heart we are all Jeffery Dahmer and we are all Hitler...The difference is the restraing force of Gods grace...

Noah, Abraham and Moses were all potential Hitlers except for the restraining force of God's grace? If we can only choose evil, except for God's intervention holding us back, then why doesn't God give everyone sufficient grace to restrain their evil impulses?

The problem is, if we have no free will, then we cannot justly be held responsible for our sins. If God has absolute sovereignty even over our moral choices, then ultimately God is responsible for the evil done by His automata.

Do you believe that we have free will?