Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate..."
Psalm 139:14-16 "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
So, being the first to admit I am not a Bible scholar, does that make me a literalist, a universalist, a Calvinist, a reformist, or can I just call myself a Christian? :) (No disrespect intended to any doctinal warriors!)
My question (most likely a stupid question, but my question nonetheless): So if the end result is the same (assurance of salvation and where we will spend eternity), what difference does the "order of salvation" make? (Why do I have the sneaking hunch I'm gonna be sorry I asked that??!!) :)
You ask a legitimate question. The answer is important because it helps us truly understand the grace and love of God and our truly desperate need. 1 Cor 2:14 shows us the extent of the radical depravity we had as natural men,
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Note the inability to understand. This leads us to ask, "how can a man in such a state understand God's message concerning his radical depravity and have a change of mind ( = repentance) to think about his condition the same way God does. The answer is he needs a heart transplant (see Ezek 36:26) The Bible calls this regeneration. This regeneration permits us to confess "Jesus is Lord." Does this make sense?
Where exactly was I boasting? About being a "tare," as you say?
And if, as you say, Calvinism is the true Gospel and never brings in any tares, how is it that Jesus even bothered with the parable you cite? Seems to me he was describing the way things are in His Church, the good and bad mingle together.
Wouldn't God have wanted it to be this way? Didn't He make it this way?
SD
So God failed?
I always thought regeneration, repentance and conversion all happened at the same glorious time!! But I was saved when I was 8 years old...most likely didn't understand things like "natural man", "radical depravity", and heart transplants!! I just knew I was a sinner who needed a Savior, Jesus was that Savior, and I confessed that "He is Lord"!
Pretty simple, when you get right down to it! However, now that I know what REALLY happened to me way back then, it's even MORE miraculous!!
How right you are! Isn't God awesome!
Last time I looked the church was in the "kingdom"
Not in the least! I quote again:
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
He provided the way. We have a choice.
The question CJ is HOW you know those things and your neighbor does not??
The doc explains the speed at which these events (regeneration/ conversion ) happen as a bullet going through a board..which came first ..the bullet or the whole it passes through ??
The order IS important because it is about the sovereignity of God
2Peter 3:9: God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
BUT: "any" or "all" of what? Dogs? Chickens? There must be an antecedent to the pronouns. In 3:3-7, Peter is discussing "them" (i.e. unbelievers). In verse 8 he addresses the "beloved." The beloved are those to whom the epistle is addressed, "those who have obtained a like precious faith with us" (1:1). Thus, God is not will willing that any of the BELOVED should perish. And, since God gets everything He wants, this verse becomes a proof-text for eternal security. Moreover, the context of this passage is when the end of the world will come (3:7,10). Peter is teaching that God will wait until "all" have a chance to repent. If "all" refers to everyone who has lived or will live, then the world would never end as new people are being born all the time! But if the reference is to all of God’s people, then the world will end when the last of the elect (a large but finite number) has repented and believed.
We all agree on this CJ..the question is who WILL believe? Why will some believe and not others?
He provided the way. We have a choice
Was anyone saved at the cross?Is it possible that Jesus might have died in vain?
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