Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
Who is already a Child of God? A Christian...that's who.
Who ALREADY has an inheritance with God....non-Christians or Christians? Again the answer is "Christian."
These Christians....both of them....were misled by the carnal nature that still lived within them. One was led off into sensual indulgence. The other dwelt in bitterness.
What did each do regarding the carnal nature? What did the Father do with either of them?
The sensually indulgent one came to his senses...a picture of a true believer "recalling" the heavenly gift...and went back home to the Father.
Wonder what happened to the bitter, self-righteous church member? I mean, he didn't lose his sonship, but I wonder what happened?
My God was God for all time..there is no other god beside Him
Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
WM you are out of Luck
Now If man can refuse Gods grace with his free will and if he can decide to save himself with his free will ..God is just a bystander till man decides what he will do ...God is helples because the god of free is stronger than His will. No one was saved at the cross till man accepts it ..... then the bible lies ...but the Mormons know about that right??
You need to read what they teach about Catholics in the privacy of their temple..you are a corrupt bunch ya know? Ask Marlowe sometime
JM there is an old saying never judge a book by its cover.
The RC's here are fresh meat to them because you are in general ignorant of scripture..you are the ones they target..remember that it was Peter that denied Christ...and he is a saint..it was Judas that kissed Christ and he burns in hell. Kisses are not always what they seem
Read Jacob's prayer in Gen 32: 9-12. "Save me from my brother."
It doesn't say, but I wonder how much the young prodigal was thinking of the older brother as he journeyed home?
I'm curious as to exactly how you are using the word "interesting" here. Do you mean "interesting" as in you may be seeing things in new light, or "interesting" as in I just really put my foot in my mouth.
I have understood that prophecy can have multi-layered meaning in time. I'm wondering if you believe that parables are in the same category in that they can have multiple meanings to different individuals or if they teach one objective truth or set of truths?
I absolutely believe that prophecy can have multi-layers of fulfilment. That is very different than parables having multi-levels of meaning.
In looking at parables, I think that one objective truth can be taught in many different ways. This does not change the fact that only one truth is being taught. Parables are stories and, as such, are subject to the same means of interpretation as any other literature. Most stories, poems, paintings and the like have multi-levels of symbolism and meaning. When Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth and the life” He is not speaking in parable, so we would view His words slightly different that then tells the story of the Prodigal Son.
Does that make any sense at all? And, if so, does it answer your question?
What happened on that thread was disgusting and evil. No wonder I don't post to this place much anymore. I have better things to do with my time then to spend it with a bunch of venomous pit vipers. Saved? You've got to be kidding me. Their hands are unclean. They need to take a good long look in the mirror and understand that their view of life is far far from anything Christ ever professed. They HATE rn. And I do mean HATE. Show me where Christ says to hate...anywhere. I thought he said love your brother as you do yourself. But nooo....not here.
If it had been Bush or Jews this was directed at you can bet your bottom dollar that those people would be banned. Perhaps that is the answer for myself. I don't need this evil place.
If the sender doesn't want those words to see the light of day, then the sender shouldn't send them.
It really doesn't matter to me anymore. Management has made it crystal clear it doesn't want to hear about religion issues. Fine. All I was asking for was decency, but apparently we are to be shown none. No problem.
Trying to get this thread to the backroom too? What else would your goal be?
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"Oh no, Rigs!" Not the backroom, I like this thread it got a lot interesting morsels to it, Yum yum!
You guys can tell yourselves whatever you want. Make yourselves innocent and make the mormons the bad guys so as to excuse the anger and hatred demonstrated toward Catholics on that miserable excuse for a thread.
This is my last post. I don't need this evil evil place.
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So much for civility! its like a centipede all the legs are short:)
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