No Room for Christ at Saint Patrick's Cathedral

Seattle Catholic ^ | 12 Sep 2002 | Thomas A. Droleskey

[Mike Fieschko]

I'd just like to see something from, say, St. Augustine

Didn't St Augustine hold that unbaptized infants went to Hell?

[narses]

Who are the damned? Did Aquinas himself see them?

Why did I know you would NOT accept the words of the Angelic Doctor?

[narses]

Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matt. 25:46 - Jesus says, "they will go away into eternal punishment" which is in reference to this eternal fire.

Judith 16:17 - in the day of judgment the Lord will take vengeance on the wicked and they shall weep in pain forever.

The Church is absolutely firm in teaching the reality of hell. The Catechism states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

[ELS]

"The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs"

"Thou hast made us for Thee, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in Thee." - St. Augustine

[Coleus]

Now when was the last time you heard a priest talk about mortal sins and going to hell?

[sinkspur]

Your post affirms the existence of hell.

It does not affirm the existence of souls in hell.

[glorygirl]

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

I think sometimes it is inappropriate to bring up outside issues, like when Princess Diana's brother launched into an attack against the Royal Family and the media at her funeral.

But I don't want to stray too far from the matter at hand. One year past the terror attack, everyone, including those most closely affected, has had plenty of time to reflect on their loss. That is not to say some people are past grieving, they are not, and perhaps never will be. It means we have reached a time when we should be prepared to move forward. In my estimation, there should have been, and should be, more discussion at this point about WHY it happened. I mean this in a political as well as a moral and religious sense.

There are many, many Catholic people in this country, including some of the people who lost children in 9/11, who believe that 9/11 was a wake-up call from God, and that abortion is probably the most grievous reason.There is nothing doctrinally wrong about stating this, or believing it.

As a Texas politician once said, when questioned about why his group was withdrawing its endorsement of a candidate after learning he was pro-choice: "Why are we one-issue? Because to us, abortion IS a life and death matter." And if you compare the 1 million killed last year in the womb to the 3,000 killed on 9/11, the first crime seems more serious than the second. This is intensified by the fact that our governemnt, the government all those people in the church in the represents, not only sanctions the crime but applauds it, and goes out of its way to protect its perpetrators.

Cardinal Egan might never have as good a chance again to place the issue in the face of all those who so gladly and firmly support abortion on demand: in God's house, in a place where God is supposed to be in charge.

[saradippity]

I know what you mean and I think that introducing these shameless,publicity seeking,wrong thinking,lying hypocritical politicians was also an insult and an affront to the dignity of the dead and the persons who loved them.

It also was an affront to all Catholics who know the Truth.There stood one of the highest ranked prelates in the Church in America grovelling before,and pandering to "Caesar".Truth standing on its head.

Nonetheless,I am of the opinion that a Cardinal in the United States at this time has very little,if any moral authority because of the position they have carved for themselves by not handling moral deviants when afforded the chance.(Present scandal).So to talk about abortion,would have only served the media with more fuel for their fire. This in addition to straying too far from the purpose of a memorial Mass for the dead and using it to make a statement,absolute truth that it is,IMO,would have been counterproductive to everything we wish to acheive.

But,I think he missed a wonderful oppurtunity to evangelize. I have heard that 85 to 90% of the firemen were Catholic. To use that as a vehicle to talk about what makes heroes and how they imitated Christ and what motivated them to work in areas where they are expected to put their life on the line for their fellow man might have made a compelling sermon,it might have started or propelled individuals' transformation processes that we hope may eventually bring the world to God through Christ.I believe that is why Christ established His Church and that is what he expects us to do.All in all,I think the Cardinal failed.

Thanks for your thoughts.There is an interesting article about Utica,the Fire Chief,who disinvited the Catholic Charities' speaker because the priest was a member of Dignity and they thought that detracted from the message the group was trying to convey at their affair.That's Catholic Action!!

[narses]

"It does not affirm the existence of souls in hell."

Really?

The who was Our Lord speaking to when He said "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."?

They do NOT affirm any PARTICULAR soul is in hell, they assuredly affirm that there is a hell and that souls are there in torment. To deny that approaches obstinate heresy.

[narses]

Very few priests do so. Most of the time in most chapels around my area you hear modernism preached. It is odd indeed to see heresy preched from the pulpit. In one chapel they get a priest once a month, the other three weeks they preach to each other, including women in the pulpit.

[sinkspur]

The who was Our Lord speaking to when He said "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."?

He wasn't speaking to anybody. He was talking about the last judgment.

They do NOT affirm any PARTICULAR soul is in hell, they assuredly affirm that there is a hell and that souls are there in torment. To deny that approaches obstinate heresy.

There is a hell, yes. If there are souls there, they are in torment, yes.

Are there definitely souls there? Jesus did not say.

[Conservative til I die]

Yet they were individually acknowledged at a Catholic Mass.

Did they receive Communion? IF not, then what's the big deal? Catholics don't bar people from Mass. Just from taking the Eucharist. By your logic, my cousin's Orthodox girlfriend and Episcopalian friend should have been banned from his mother's funeral last year because they too disagree with the Catholic Church.

Shame on Egan and shame on you for defending a worthless Cardinal!

Stop being so bitter. And learn something about context.

[Conservative til I die]

There's lots of "truth." Do you plan to squeeze it all into a 20 minute homily?. Sure, forget the homily. Look those pro-death politicians right in the eye, name everyone of them individually, and tell them they're on the way to Hell unless they repent. It could take no more than 2 minutes.

Wow, you must be real fun to be around at parties, or funerals.

[Conservative til I die]

Apparently the traditionalists expect Catholic priests to be able to even pre-empt sin now, re: the sex incident in the cathedral.

[Conservative til I die]

I'm not sure I follow your statement about there not being souls in hell. I would assume that at any given time there have to be souls in hell, considering that a sentence to hell is eternal. In that sense, there should always be souls in hell, and the number can only get larger.

[narses]

Are there definitely souls there? Jesus did not say.


To believe as you appear to that there are not souls in hell, is to believe that ALL people die in a State of Grace, or said differently that NO ONE HAS EVER died in mortal sin. Is that what you believe?

[kulot]

Perhaps hell is a place that is simply far from God while heaven is a place nearer to God.

Since none of us are without sin and none are completely void of goodness, and the degree of purity varies from throughout all mankind, then there would be multiple levels of "hell" and "heaven".

[Conservative til I die]

By your logic, my cousin's Orthodox girlfriend and Episcopalian friend should have been banned from his mother's funeral last year because they too disagree with the Catholic Church.

Would you approve of Osama bin Laden attending your cousin's mother's funeral so he could further his cause?

Oh gimme a break! Talk about looking at things in a vaccuum! Do you have any idea what context is? These apples and oranges aren't even in the same bowl. In the same galaxy!

You're comparing Orthodox and Episcopalians at a funeral to Osama Bin Laden making a speech at a Catholic Church to further al Qaeda's agenda? Hell, to even compare pro-abortion politicians sitting in at a 9-11 service with OBL is a huge stretch.

You're a complete kook.