Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[hopespringseternal]

And you are hung up on the wrong question. Paul was addressing a real, physical congregation of people (tares and wheat) who were dividing themselves physically. He told them to knock it off.

The reason this is important to the topic at hand is the question asked concerning the will of God. Christ prayed for unity, and for the will of God to be done "on earth as it is in heaven." The implication being that "Thy kingdom come" was intrinsically tied to "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

First of all, I don't see that the implication is logical.

Secondly, you either have to admit that Jesus also prayed for unity and didn't get it , or He received it ("it" being unity of believers, not unity of resurrected Christians) and most schisms wearing the name "Christian" are deceiving themselves. If you say He prayed for unity of believers and didn't get it, then it is no stretch to say "thy will be done" also was not granted.

Again, Paul told the Corinthians busily dividing themselves to knock it off. Modern Christians tell Paul to get lost on the subject.

[theAmbassador]

Hey, guess what, I can use pretty charts too.

Your arguments are totally off scripture now -- xzins referring to post #2513

There is nothing there except complaining about something he doesn't cite. There is no attempt at all to use scripture. -- xzins referring to post #2513

From post #2513:

• For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things,....

The High Priest I serve is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the true tabernacle. In other words, the Lord has already assumed His eternal glory, which He cannot perform if He were on earth.

---

From the New King James translation of the BIBLE:

Hebrews 8 The New Priest and the New Covenant

Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Perhaps you might care to explain just how the Lord can be on this earth and also serve as the High Priest to God the Father at the same time when the scriptures specifically and explicitly tell us that

• if He were on earth, He would not be a priest.

[theAmbassador]

Forget the metaphors. They're in the eye of the beholder. Now, is there death in the "new heavens and new earth?" Yes or NO?

This explaination of death in Isaiah 65 is good enough for the Most High; it is good enought for me. If you can't understand what is being said here, then just say so and I will illuminate you:

• For as the days of a Tree, so shall be the days of My people.

[Matchett-PI]

After my two attempts, you still don't *get it*. I know a third attempt will be no different.

Those who have eyes to see, *will* see, those who don't, won't.

[theAmbassador]

What hope doesn't get is that unity within the visible church is most definitely not the will of God. The Lord brought a sword of division for the visible church. This is, as you have pointed out with the references to parables, only a foreshadowing of the separation which will take place when the Lord returns.

The pretenders will recive in their souls the wrath of God which already abides upon them (John 3:18, 3:36).

And we shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Him. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to us. Will we not be moved to a greater sense of awareness of just how wonderful the unmerited grace of God really is when we see this? Shall we not rejoice to know that we are not the objects of God fierce wrath? Shall we not fall down and give God glory through praise and worship? Shall we not feel awe and wonder to simply know that the only difference between us and the reprobate is the free grace of God that He has in His sovereignty bestowed?

[xzins]

Is there death in the New Heavens and New Earth (NHNE)? Yes or No?

Feel free to explain the tree metaphor if it results in your answering the above question.

[hopespringseternal]

I know exactly what you are saying. Go look at the prayer. In fact, here it is for you:

John 17:20-23
I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

If Christ is talking about the "invisible" church, how could the world see "their" unity?

Contemporary Christians don't just tell Paul to get lost on this subject, they also tell Jesus to get lost. Contemporary Christians say, "I follow Luther," or "I follow Wesley." Luther and Wesley were fine men who would no doubt be horrified to have a schism in the church named for them or ascribed to them.

[xzins]

if He were on earth, He would not be a priest.

So are you saying there is no 2nd Coming of Christ...that's he's not allowed to return to the earth?

[hopespringseternal]

I see nothing to disagree with in the linked post.

My point is that Christ was not praying for the spiritual kingdom, but the physical manifestation of it.

[hopespringseternal]

What hope doesn't get is that unity within the visible church is most definitely not the will of God. The Lord brought a sword of division for the visible church. This is, as you have pointed out with the references to parables, only a foreshadowing of the separation which will take place when the Lord returns.

I am left with the distinct impression that like so many others, you simply refuse to address divisiveness as a sin. I don't think God sent Paul to denounce what God was doing.

[xzins]

So, you have symbolic death in the new heavens and new earth (NHNE). In your NHNE, You have symbolic death and symbolic sorrow and symbolic tears and symbolic old people and symbolic infants and symbolic youth.

The bible has a millennial reign where Christ rules UNTIL these things are abolished. The bible has a NHNE where they don't exist at all.

Can we assume it's a symbolic heaven, a symbolic earth, a symbolic God, a symbolic city with symbolic streets of gold, sybolic trees of life, and symbolic river of the symbolic water of life? Is it a symbolic return of a symbolic Christ who defeats a symbolic satan and slays a symbolic antichrist and his symbolic armies?

You have just reduced Christianity to myth! That is why amillennialism is the preferred teaching of religious liberals.

[Matchett-PI]

"...you simply refuse to address divisiveness as a sin."

Are you a female?

[RnMomof7]

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. =======

If the kingdom has come is His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven? If earth today is a moral reflection of Heaven... something's amiss up there. Ya think? Just a Wednesday morning reflection offered to the brethren and sistren.

IF the Kingdom of God is within you..seems praying for it to come would make sense:) a little Wed reflection back at ya :>))

This is no cut and dry situation

[RnMomof7]

QUESTION: If the kingdom has already come, is His will now being done on earth as it is now being done in Heaven? -- Matthew 6:10

As a Calvinist I say yes..His will is always done..

[xzins]

So, why would you keep praying for it to come after you're saved? Lack of faith and lack of assurance of salvation?

[RnMomof7]

In other words, during the time when you guys say the Kingdom will be here, "His will [ in reality, is not] done on earth as it is now being done in Heaven". Goodness, even ftd says that there will be some who do not obey.

Excellent point

[Jean Chauvin]

"So, you have symbolic death in the new heavens and new earth (NHNE). In your NHNE, You have symbolic death and symbolic sorrow and symbolic tears and symbolic old people and symbolic infants and symbolic youth. "

No! Again, I did not say that! LOL!

The point of that passage was ~not~ to tell us specifically the precise nature of the New Heavens and the New Earth -otherwise...

...(I gotta do it Ambassador)...

...why would God through Isaiah 65 tell us that "the days of a tree are the days of ~MY~ people"????

x, do ~God's~ people during the millennium live only as long as Trees then die?????

Remember, we are not talking about some supposed people who were not raptured, became believers during the tribulation, then lived into the millennium! (I thought you were not a pre-tribber!?!) We are talking about God's people. According to Pre-Millennial theology, do not the Raptured Saints live on into eternity with no more death??? But here we have Isaiah 65 tell us that God's people will only live as long as trees!!!! Trees don't live forever! This, then ~CANNOT~ be a description of a Pre-Millennial kingdom either!

(xzins sighs to himself...."oops, I didn't think of that one...")

as the_doc says..."game, set, match"

Jean

[RnMomof7]

You completely leave out "death" that appears in Is 65. For as the days of a Tree, so shall be the days of My people.

Are you admitting that you believe there is DEATH in the New Heavens and New Earth? Why would there be death in the NHNE?

Could it be the tree of Life..once in the Garden now in heaven??

[xzins]

So, you DO have death in the new heavens and new earth (NHNE)! The bible, in Is 65, speaks of death. Now you're saying it isn't symbolic, that it's actual.

So, tell us Jean, is the death in the NHNE a "symbolic" death or is it a "real" death?

All along, you try to talk about what's in your left hand to distract attention from the right hand. In the right hand are the verses from Rev 5, Rev 20, and 1 Co 15 that irrefutably prove that there IS A RETURN of Christ to establish a millennial kingdom on earth.

You don't understand the millennial kingdom of Christ on the earth after his return, do you? 1 Co 15 says "the last enemy to be destroyed is death." I place these deaths in the millennial kingdom on earth. You place them in the NHNE. You are clearly out of touch with scripture.

[xzins]

But they still haven't placed the location of those who Isa 65 says WILL DIE. Are those dead people in the NHNE or are they in the millennial kingdom?

The amil's won't answer the question. Why?