Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[xzins]

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CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

— WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE
MILLENNIUM
	Annotated Summary by
	MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.
	"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the   Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
	— August 1891, age 58

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

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Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

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Watching and Waiting Magazine

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From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —

Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

[xzins]

You have 3 and only 3 choices in placing that scripture in its proper time context. (For the youth will die at the age of one hundred )

1. It is NOW before the Return of Christ.
2. It is in the New Heavens and the New Earth (it doesn't matter whether the NHNE of the amillennialists or premillennialists.)
3. It is in the millennial reign of the premillennialists. "

I'll take #2 for $1000, Bob!</i.

What you choose, then, is to advance the position that there is human death in the new heavens and the new earth. You are certainly free to propose that, but what's the point of death in the new heavens and new earth? Did someone sin? After Christ destroyed death, did He just decide to bring it back? What??? Why does the New Jerusalem passage in Revelation say, "and death will be no more?"

The correct answer is number 3. The word "but" makes it possible in that chapter. The rest of bible revelation makes it necessary.

[hopespringseternal]

Why aren't all Christians united as Christ asked? Is Christ divided?

To answer your question, no, His will is not done on earth as in heaven, and not even the mellenialists believe that will be the case in the mellenium, at least not as far as I have read in mellenial literature.

In heaven, God's will isn't imposed on unwilling angels.

[theAmbassador]

Rn, the issue is the scripture of Rev 5, Rev 20, and 1 Co 15. They say there's a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after his return.

I reserve the right to come back and examine these scriptures directly. However, I am still in the interest charity looking to understand your position and query you directly about it with a few scriptures. I will also return to your previous post, but I wanted RnMomof7 to see this:

• Isaiah 65:18 (The verse you evidently don't like) For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come upon the heart.

• Isaiah 65:19-20. It says 19 "I will also (45) rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of (46) weeping and the sound of crying.

• Revelation 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.... "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

In the words of the_doc: "Game, Set, & Match" to the Amillennialists ;^)

BTW, I will come back and revisit these verses again.

[xzins]

Hardly, see #2541 response to Chauvin.

You completely leave out "death" that appears in Is 65. If, as you say, this is the New Heavens and New Earth (NHNE), Why is there death in the NHNE?

[theAmbassador]

QUESTION:
If the kingdom has already come, is His will now being done on earth as it is now being done in Heaven? -- Matthew 6:10

ANSWER:
For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

BTW, I will concede that after the Lord returns that we who will inherit that kingdom will perform His will perfectly for we will all be perfect replicas of God, speaking and acting with the FULL authority of our Father. When we speak, it will be as if the Father speaks. This ~IS~ Amillennialism.

However, Premillennialism has a problem. It is this little Gog and Magog thing where the perfect will of the Father will not be done. There is this whole sea of pretenders in the Lord's paradise who will outwardly show all the signs of conversion except that they will ~NOT~ have glorified bodies and inwardly will despise the Lord's statues. So, in this Premillennial paradise I will weep for as the Psalter says: "because Thy statutes are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep."

It is just one of the many reasons why I am not excited about the idea that I might be wrong.

[xzins]

the issue is the scripture of Rev 5, Rev 20, and 1 Co 15. They say there's a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after his return. I reserve the right to come back and examine these scriptures directly.

I'll just post it for you again, so you can see them more easily.

Christ Reigning on the Earth for 1000 Years = Premillennism

Revelation 5:9-10	9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.	Christians Serving as Kings & PRIESTS who SHALL (FUTURE) reign with Christ on the EARTH
Revelation 20:4-5	4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.	Resurrected saints (along with those in fine linen Rev 19: 8, 14 same as Rev 5:10) REIGN with Christ a THOUSAND YEARS.
Revelation 20:6	6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.	Christians serving as priests reign with Christ a thousand years
Revelation 20:7-9	Revelation 20 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them..	After 1000 years those in Holy City ON EARTH are attacked but enemy is destroyed
Summary	100% Scripture from the Book of Revelation..	Irrefutable 1000 Year Reign of Christ on Earth. Christians serving as priests with Christ for 1000 years ON EARTH. This is the definition of Premillenialism. Anyone who says premillennialism is NOT a valid biblical position is unfair with SCRIPTURE.

[Matchett-PI]

"Why aren't all Christians united as Christ asked? Is Christ divided?"

There's the invisible church which is united. It is the spiritual body of Christ and is composed only of the elect (the physically dead and physically alive regenerate) all down through history.

Then there's the visible church which is NOT united because it is composed of both the wheat and the tares; the sheep and the goats; the elect and the NON-elect, all physically alive today.

There can never be unity in the visible church for the simple reason that there can never be unity between light and darkness.

[theAmbassador]

You completely leave out "death" that appears in Is 65.

For as the days of a Tree, so shall be the days of My people.

[Matchett-PI]

bump!!

[the_doc]

Okay, resuming my comments on your post #2158, let me start off by emphasizing that the full-preterists have discovered something important. They have discovered that the passages which speak of the Lord’s return do give most readers the distinct impression that He will return soon.

(This is not an accident. The various passages covering the topic of the Lord’s return are intended to be encouraging for God’s people. They are intended to keep us thoughtful about His return.)

Ah, but it turns out that God reserves the right to define “soon.” That’s one of Peter’s main points. That’s why he chose to quote from a Psalm which spells out the fact that God is not like us, that God’s very eternality should be a warning to the scoffers who were ULTIMATELY just scoffing about the fact of the Lord’s DELAY (and trying to use the DELAY as a basis for insinuating that He is NOT GOING TO COME BACK).

This is what the full-preterists have never faced squarely. They ignore 2 Peter 3 while pretending to interpret it.

So, in a peculiar way, the passage is ultmately a warning about today’s full-preterists. Like the scoffers in Peter’s day, they say the Lord is NOT COMING BACK. To be more specific, they say that if God never had any intentions of sending His Son back to earth in a way which was HUMANLY soon, then God is a LIAR.

So, don’t be fooled by the full-preterists’ smarmy arguments invoking a Bodily return by Christ in 70 A.D. They have to be disfellowshipped. They are scoffers who are just hiding behind the intepretive difficulties inherent in the Olivet Discourse. At the bottom-line, they really are calling God a liar while pretending to interpret His words. My goodness, they are DEFYING the ENTIRE POINT of 2 Peter 3.

(I would use basically the same argument in applying to them Paul’s condemnation of Hymenaeus and Philetus. As you know, the full-preterists say that the warnings against the doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus don’t apply to them in view of the events of 70 A.D [i.e., shortly after Peter’s epistle]. But we mustn’t be spiritually naive. We musn’t be fooled by the Satanic shell-game which the full-preterists are playing. We need to notice that their position renders Christianity essentially MEANINGLESS. We need to notice that they are trying to DESTROY the hope of the Church.

We don’t have to understand the Olivet Discourse to realize that. On the contrary, we ought to realize that the full-preterists’ interpretation of the Oiivet Discourse is the very first one which we can rule OUT!)

Getting back to 2 Peter 3, I would say that 2 Peter 3 is important in warning us that goofball eschatology is not to be coddled. Considering Peter’s scathing characterization of the scoffers as "walking after their own lusts," we need to notice that a sinner’s bad eschatology can amount to a revelation that he is just plain LOST.

(I will grant that we can’t always tell the difference between a lost person and a genuine Christian who has lapsed into carnal stupidity in matters such as eschatology. But this fact is automatically a warning that a lot of folks who get pronounced saved are not saved. And in movements where stupid eschatological positions are exalted at the expense of the gospel and the True Hope of the Church, a lot of folks will be discovered on Judgment Day as having been lost the whole time. They will be revealed as idolaters.)

In short, 2 Peter 3 is an extraordinarily serious text!

More later.

[hopespringseternal]

There can never be unity in the visible church for the simple reason that there can never be unity between light and darkness.

So who was Paul admonishing in the letter to the Corinthians?

Your answer doesn't fly because it is impossible to assemble any group of people without both tares and wheat, and large groups do come together in unity all the time. The disunity is not a matter of tares amongst wheat, but exactly as it was with the Corinthians: People forming sects and divisions based on what they wanted to believe and who they want to follow.

So either Christ prayed for something to happen that hasn't (wouldn't be the only instance) or the true physical manifestation of the spiritual church is united.

[xzins]

You completely leave out "death" that appears in Is 65. For as the days of a Tree, so shall be the days of My people.

Are you admitting that you believe there is DEATH in the New Heavens and New Earth? Why would there be death in the NHNE?

[theAmbassador]

I rather expect that the non-Reformed will bring up Matthew 6:10 in defense of Premillennialism. Especially the "tipsy dispy" crowd. Most of them actually think that this world is in total chaos and out of control and they are just hanging on until the Lord half returns and gets them out of this "hell hole".

It is somewhat unexpected when my reformed brothers bring up that verse. They know that the will of the Lord is done. And we both agree that in next age we will all act perfectly within His will. They just have this little interpretation problem with Rev 20 and a little rebellion, which kinda makes Mat 6:10 explode in their face.

[theAmbassador]

Are you admitting that you believe there is DEATH in the New Heavens and New Earth? Why would there be death in the NHNE?

I'm not admitting anything of the sort. "For as the days of a Tree, so shall be the days of My people." Do you not understand this metaphor?

[the_doc]

According to the Pre-Mil's, there ~WILL~ be rebellion, sin and the like during the 1000 millennial kingdom as well.

As I see it, this is one of the important warnings against the premill position. It is a warning that something has gone carnally haywire in the souls of the premills. Their interpretation of the millennium doesn't fit what we know about God and Christ.

It seems to me that a spiritually thoughtful person would balk--to say the least!--at the notion that God would make His Son live in such a CRAPPY world for ANOTHER THOUSAND YEARS.

(Remember: Sin GRIEVED the Lord Jesus when He was on earth.)

Furthermore, the premills' claim that some folks will literally die during the materialistic millennium to be (supposedly) ushered in after the Lord's return does not square with the Bible's rather clear revelation that the Lord's return is the consummation of His defeat of physical death.

[Matchett-PI]

"So either Christ prayed for something to happen that hasn't (wouldn't be the only instance) or the true physical manifestation of the spiritual church is united."

You are hung up on looking at the carnal/physical *temporal* church as if it is composed only of the elect. It isn't.

The catholic (universal/invisible) church is the only one that is composed of the elect (both alive today and dead).

Christ lives in the regenerate --- only the regenerate are HIS BODY of which HE IS THE HEAD.

He does NOT live in the unregenerate. They are NOT His body, even though they sit in church pews every week.

When He returns the second time, He will separate out of the temporal church all the pretenders from the real mccoy; all the tares from the wheat; all the sheep from the goats.

[theAmbassador]

It seems to me that a spiritually thoughtful person would balk--to say the least!--at the notion that God would make His Son live in such a CRAPPY world for ANOTHER THOUSAND YEARS.

• the Psalter: "because Thy statutes are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep."

• There can be no vision of God in the face of Jesus Christ in this kingdom. Still only in a glass darkly.

[xzins]

Forget the metaphors. They're in the eye of the beholder.

Now, is there death in the "new heavens and new earth?" Yes or NO?

[xzins]

Finishing the posting of scripture. It explains the millennium kingdom and what is going on there.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Paul and The Time Span of the Millennial Kingdom in 1 Cor 15: 22-26

Text	Scripture	Associated Resurrection	Time
1 Co 15: 23a	23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;	Jesus’ Own was the First Resurrection	Time Point: Resurrection Sunday, approx 33 AD
1 Co 15: 23b	23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.	Those who are Christ’s (those who are dead in Christ + the rapture of those who are alive …1Th4:16-17)	Time Point: At the 2nd Coming of Christ
1 Co 15: 24-26	24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.	The Remainder Resurrected at the End	TIME SPAN Beginning at THE RETURN "He MUST REIGN" UNTIL All enemies, INCLUDING DEATH, destroyed.

[Jean Chauvin]

"What you choose, then, is to advance the position that there is human death in the new heavens and the new earth. You are certainly free to propose that, but what's the point of death in the new heavens and new earth? Did someone sin? After Christ destroyed death, did He just decide to bring it back? What??? Why does the New Jerusalem passage in Revelation say, "and death will be no more?" "

No! Isaiah 65:17,18 ~SPECIFICALLY~ and ~EXPLICITLY~ identify this as the New Creation.

Now, the passage does identify death, but I am under no more REQUIREMENT to view this passage as a LITERAL description of the New Heavens and the New Earth than I am REQUIRED to view all the beastly creatures in Revelation as LITERAL creatures!

The context, of course, indicates that I do not. We know from other parts of Scripture that the New Heavens and the New Earth will be without death! Therefore, we undestand that Isaiah 65 is a spiritual description of the reality of the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Your interpretion would tell that we will have "no more crying" even when the young shall die! What? Are the mothers of those young who die at 100 be rejoicing? There shall be no sorrow in their hearts that their sons died early?

Leave it to x! He has people dying in this wonderful 1000 year millennium kingdom, but no sorrow of their death! The mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters of these who die will rejoice in their death! How sad!

In otherwords, the intent of Isaiah 65 is ~not~ to tell us that there a man dies at 100 he will be considered to be young, but that there will be a drastic change from our current reality of death and destruction where a babe will die at 1 month old. That earth will be no more.

"The correct answer is number 3."

No! Isaiah 65:17,18 ALREADY and EXPLICTLY has informed us that this is the New Heavens and the New Earth!

The word "but" makes it possible in that chapter. The rest of bible revelation makes it necessary. "

No! Word "but" does not require a contrast. It is not intended to 'change the topic under discussion'. It ~is~ meant to reiforce the gladness and joy we are to have in all that God will create -the New Heavens and the New Earth!

"But" here is used as it is in Isaiah 5:12. It is used as "for", "moreover", "now", "yet" -all legitimate and real definitions of the word "but"!

Jean