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Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM
Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

Posted on 09/12/2002 7:19:20 AM PDT by xzins


CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

.

Charles

Haddon

Spurgeon's

VIEW OF THE

MILLENNIUM

 Annotated Summary by  

MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial"yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.

 

"Our Hope is the Personal

PRE-MILLENNIAL

RETURN of the

  Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."

August 1891, age 58  

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

.

Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

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NOTES OF INTEREST

Watching and Waiting Magazine

                                          by C. W. H. Griffiths

Published by Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony

1 Donald Way, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 9JB United Kingdom

Stephen A. Toms, secretary

Write and Request the Complete Article            

From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below

Spurgeon (age 43) There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He that same Jesus who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: amillennialism; burnservetus; calburnbibles; calvinism; falsedoctrine; heritics; millenium; postmillennialism; premillennialism
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To: Corin Stormhands
do ya mean there's other stuff he's wrong about....egads!!
2,381 posted on 10/16/2002 11:53:36 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Well, I can't say. I wouldn't want to be accused of being divisive amongst people in the midst of a fight or anything...
2,382 posted on 10/16/2002 12:02:05 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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To: Woodkirk; RnMomof7
Makes me wonder if God is going to "beam up" the throne from Britan to heaven to His right side, or if He will move His throne down here next to the one in Britan? :o)

BTW, the fact that He will reign until His enemy be made His footstool" is a clue He is a conquering king.

But after all is conquered, even He hands the kingdom over to the father. (1 Cor 15:28).

Just my opinion, but this idea that Christ will be king forever is incorrect. God the father will rule once the conquering is complete.

PS all that was to be conquered (death (hades) and sin), have been.
2,383 posted on 10/16/2002 12:13:50 PM PDT by nate4one
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To: xzins; Jean Chauvin
Here we go again is right. You know the response is on earth because the scene is on earth and because Rev 5: 10 says "reign on earth." The scene is on earth because the angel came down "out of heaven," Satan is prevented from deceiving those who live on the earth, he is released back to deceive those on the earth.

All of which is predicated up a reinterpretation of the gospel to force it to fit PreMillennialism. Note that all of the following citations from the gospel are 100% true: You can either choose to accept them, or you can reject them. However, this is basic gospel stuff that the Lord Himself spoke plainly about. What makes you think that the Lord would make the gospel cryptic and needing a special Revelation in order to be unlocked?
2,384 posted on 10/16/2002 12:18:07 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I don't want to fight with you but it needs to be pointed out that to prove your personal ideas which really, in spite of what you think, aren't all that important to anythng anyway, you ignore important scripture that doesn't agree with you. This will get you into serious trouble someday if you do become a minister of the Word.

Jesus Christ's claim to the throne is God's claim to the throne. He doesn[t have to inherit anything that is already His as another poster has pointed out. The elect that belong to Jesus are the elect that belong to Jesus. The true throne never changes.

Zedekiah's claim to the "throne of David" King of Judah, was every bit as real as any other king put up there by the Lord. If God didn't enthrone him who did? Nebuchadrezzer did, but whose servant was he? This is sealed when Ezekiel refers to him as the "Royal Seed" that was taken away to Babylon in the parable of Chapter 17. And he is the one referred to, not Jechoniah or the son, who sat on the throne for 6 months after the curse was given.

To show just how unimportant the "Throne" was to God, He even let the AntiChrist and his son sit on it, while the True King walked the earth.

The irony of course with Jeremiah, as with the other prophets, is that the people constantly reject the Word of God, whether it's the Torah or Jeremiah. If you are going to feed them, feed them bread not manure.

2,385 posted on 10/16/2002 12:20:27 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: Corin Stormhands
What's up bro?....
2,386 posted on 10/16/2002 12:20:43 PM PDT by g'nad
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To: g'nad
You've got mail.
2,387 posted on 10/16/2002 12:24:10 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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To: CCWoody; fortheDeclaration; RnMomof7; drstevej; ksen; kjam22; DittoJed2; nobdysfool; Woodkirk; ...
You have added a parentheses because that's where the issue is, isn't it? The end of the age is when the tares will burn....After the judgement of the unjust.
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age [ the age of the sowing of the seed]. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

The rapture at the end of the tribulation will translate into eternity (the 5 good virgins) those who believe in Christ. They will reign with Christ. Those alive, unbelieving, and not ready will remain on earth.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

See 1st, 2nd resurrections in Rev 20: 4-5. It emphasizes the nature of the judging going on.
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.... And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:.... Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:.... And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The rapture/1st Resurrection (Rev 19:14; Rev 20:4) precedes the white throne judgementand coming to life of the rest of the dead.(Rev 20:5) The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


2,388 posted on 10/16/2002 12:25:05 PM PDT by xzins
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To: JesseShurun
To show just how unimportant the "Throne" was to God, He even let the AntiChrist and his son sit on it, while the True King walked the earth.

antichrist sat on it??????? please explain

2,389 posted on 10/16/2002 12:27:43 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Corin Stormhands
it's just a food fight....

better to be called a heretic than a liberal democrat. just ask any of 'em.

2,390 posted on 10/16/2002 12:37:11 PM PDT by xzins
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To: CCWoody
I'm sorry but I was going 500 mph yesterday. I thought you were asking about David's descendents. The reference to the temple I gave off the top of my head as I did the living stones. You are right. 1Peter 2:5 is the other.

All throughout scripture you will see references to the people as the true Temple, the True Throne, the True Land. A person is a stone of the temple. We are in Christ. He is the Temple. We are the City of Jerusalem, living stones. You know the rest.

We don't worship the exterior monuments and we sure as heck never worship ourselves, but people who reject the Word of God, whether it's the Prophets or the Torah, will get lost every time.

2,391 posted on 10/16/2002 12:38:59 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: xzins
xzins, xzins, xzins. Read Josephus' account of Herod who tried to kill Christ and of the son that killed John. Read the New Testament account of Herod. People who like types can revel to their heart's content in the exploits of this evil malefactor. Herod was descended from the Idameans and that's another story. Get offline and get to work.
2,392 posted on 10/16/2002 12:44:06 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: xzins; Jean Chauvin
Let's just take these one at a time, shall we:
The gospel: Your response:
Your response is a lie against the scripture. The gospel says that the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth to either life or condemnation.
2,393 posted on 10/16/2002 12:47:03 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: JesseShurun
types, types, types.....curses on types UNLESS the writer says "type of Antichrist" to clarify what he means. C'mon Jesse, you've been into this obscurity thing for a week or two. Get over it.
2,394 posted on 10/16/2002 12:48:46 PM PDT by xzins
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To: CCWoody; fortheDeclaration; RnMomof7
Woody, read Rev 20. Especially verses 4 & 5. There are 2 resurrections mentioned...they are separated by a 1000 years. That's no reinterpretation --- that IS premillennialism. It's exactly the same as John the Apostle wrote and taught.
2,395 posted on 10/16/2002 12:52:43 PM PDT by xzins
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To: JesseShurun
All throughout scripture you will see references to the people as the true Temple, the True Throne, the True Land. A person is a stone of the temple. We are in Christ. He is the Temple. We are the City of Jerusalem, living stones. You know the rest.

Ok, I'm caught back up. I had not noticed the 1 Pe 2:5 reference before and linked it with the Corinthians passage. Ignoring the True Throne and True Land statements, can you now explain how you make the case that the living stone here is actually a "book"?
2,396 posted on 10/16/2002 12:57:07 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: RnMomof7
Rev...go away...and take your gifs with ya:>)

be nice lady -

2,397 posted on 10/16/2002 1:02:35 PM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: xzins; Jean Chauvin
Woody, read Rev 20. Especially verses 4 & 5. There are 2 resurrections mentioned...they are separated by a 1000 years.

I'm not disputing that!

That's no reinterpretation --- that IS premillennialism. It's exactly the same as John the Apostle wrote and taught.

To be exact, it is merely an interpretation that the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the damned are separated by 1000 years. I'm not even disputing that that is PreMillennialism.

I am disputing that this is what the gospel of John wrote and taught.

The words of the gospel of John: You must reinterpret these gospel words to force it to fit your PreMillennial notions about what the Revelation says. There is really no disputing this. This is what you are doing.

You must believe that Jesus is speaking in a cryptic language which needs the Revelation as a key to unlock.

You must believe that the gospel itself is a cryptic language.


In short, you are making the gospel into a lie with your interpret the gospel according to the PreMillennialist interpretation of Revelation method of Biblical interpretation. And this you are not allowed to do.
2,398 posted on 10/16/2002 1:07:51 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: nate4one
You terminally ill or something?

are you irregular?

nate - youve misinterpreted my post and I admittedly forgot my grin tag - It was a joke lampooning the fact RNmomof7 is in agreement with xzins and in disagreement with her compadres (the calvinists) with whom she typically sides. If you had spent the time to read the entire post it was plainly clear to those who spend even minimal time here.

you need to take a deep breath before you lash out so piously - Ive not stated anywhere here what my position is, for the mere fact the opinions of goobs like you matter not to me, particularly since they are typically abusive and intentionally offensive. Is the_doc now giving lessons?

2,399 posted on 10/16/2002 1:18:57 PM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: xzins
Obscurity? Now I'm totally confused as it is clear to me what it's all about. The story is also in Joseph but I'll leave that until much much much later. Sorry, I didn't mean to be obscure.
2,400 posted on 10/16/2002 1:33:10 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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