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. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE |
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MILLENNIUM |
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Annotated Summary by |
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MARK A. MCNEIL |
Posted on 09/12/2002 7:19:20 AM PDT by xzins
CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?
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. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE |
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MILLENNIUM |
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Annotated Summary by |
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MARK A. MCNEIL |
"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."
[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]
INTRODUCTION
There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.
It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.
PREMILLENNIALISM
The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.
Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.
AMILLENNIALISM
The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.
This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening. It is, to them, a Present Reality.
POSTMILLENNIALISM
The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.
This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.
Spurgeon's VIEW 
With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.
"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]
Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.
*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!
Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...
"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]
"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]
Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming. Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.
"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]
[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."
In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.
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"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
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— August 1891, age 58 |
Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.
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We feel safe in concluding, then, |
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that of the three views we began with, |
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Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a |
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Literal Return of Jesus Christ |
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BEFORE |
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a Literal Millennium on the Earth. |
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——————————————————————————— |
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Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student |
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Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement |
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Great was the COMPANY of those that PUBLISHED it." Please, Copy this article, pass it on, and mail to others. |
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Permission granted by Bob L. Ross — No Copyright
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NOTES OF INTEREST Watching and Waiting Magazine |
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by C. W. H. Griffiths Published by Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony |
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— Write and Request the Complete Article |
From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.
Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —
Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...
Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.
Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.
Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel 37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.
The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.
The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.
We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.
Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.
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"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]
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You have no idea....
though, you should have an idea... the past month, I've been more than introspective, to the point of almost being shaken.
Not so fast OP. You forget a huge number of promises of restoration of Israel with "David" as King.
That, after all, is the point of the Church/Israel debate.
Try just these two for beginnings.
Jeremiah 30 8 " 'In that day,' declares the LORD Almighty, 'I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them. 9 Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them. 10 " 'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD . 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.
Jeremiah 33 Promise of Restoration 1 While Jeremiah was still confined in the courtyard of the guard, the word of the LORD came to him a second time: 2 "This is what the LORD says, he who made the earth, the LORD who formed it and established it-the LORD is his name: 3 'Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.' 4 For this is what the LORD , the God of Israel, says about the houses in this city and the royal palaces of Judah that have been torn down to be used against the siege ramps and the sword 5 in the fight with the Babylonians [1] : 'They will be filled with the dead bodies of the men I will slay in my anger and wrath. I will hide my face from this city because of all its wickedness. 6 " 'Nevertheless, I will bring health and healing to it; I will heal my people and will let them enjoy abundant peace and security. 7 I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity [2] and will rebuild them as they were before. 8 I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me. 9 Then this city will bring me renown, joy, praise and honor before all nations on earth that hear of all the good things I do for it; and they will be in awe and will tremble at the abundant prosperity and peace I provide for it.' 10 "This is what the LORD says: 'You say about this place, "It is a desolate waste, without men or animals." Yet in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem that are deserted, inhabited by neither men nor animals, there will be heard once more 11 the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, and the voices of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD , saying, "Give thanks to the LORD Almighty, for the LORD is good; his love endures forever." For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were before,' says the LORD . 12 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'In this place, desolate and without men or animals-in all its towns there will again be pastures for shepherds to rest their flocks. 13 In the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem and in the towns of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hand of the one who counts them,' says the LORD . 14 " 'The days are coming,' declares the LORD , 'when I will fulfill the gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15 " 'In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line; he will do what is just and right in the land. 16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it [3] will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.' 17 For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18 nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.' "
New Jerusalem.
Which is the only legitimate reading, of course, since the Jeconiah Curse makes the PreMillenial position a Biblically illegal hermeneutic.
Next??
I think he has been.
No offense, "the_doc", but Jude's latest posts to me have been quite honest and evenhanded. He doesn't just dismiss my arguments with scoffing assertions, he has been thoughtfully questioning me to make sure he understands my points correctly and has been considering them carefully.
Does this mean that he is necessarily going to agree with my arguments? God only knows, of course!! But he has definitely been giving them reasoned consideration.
Jude24 will continue to ponder these things in his heart, I expect, and I pray that God will continue to grant him Illumination. (Even I did not come to Amillenialism in one day, even though my transition was comparatively gentle and relatively painless. I used to scoff against Amillenialism myself, even here on Free Republic; but I remember a certain gentle-but-firm post on II Peter 3 which had a cathartic effect on me. Don't know that I was necessarily more "thoughtful" about it, I just think that God was being generous in His illumination of my eyes that particular day).
But all in all, if we don't at least give jude24 credit for his willingness to consider and contemplate our arguments (see Jude's #2219 and his #2220 and his #2223 and his #2258 and his #2269 and his #2276), then I think we would be guilty of being insufficiently charitable towards him.
Not a correction, just a request for credit being given where it is due.
God Bless, OP
No, OP's statement is that Jesus, as a Royal Son of the Solomonic House is Legally Entitled to the Davidic Throne (II Samuel 12:12-17, I Chronicles 17: 11-14, I Chronicles 22:10), and that the Davidic Throne will never again be established in a Carnal, Material Kingdom in Old Jerusalem of Judah on This Earth (Jeremiah 22: 28-30) for as long as This Earth, called as a witness, remains (Jeremiah 22:29).
I request that you not mis-represent my position. My argument is quite clear. You know what I am saying. Don't pretend I am saying something else just to serve your own position.
I am arguing that ALL the Solomonic Prophecies are True. That is my Argument.
Let's review:
Why do I think you are switching your position OP? Have you or have you not argued
1)That the line of Solomon was closed due to the cure of Jehoiachin ?
2) That Jesus as the adopted son of Joseph remained under the curse and could not inherit the Throne of David because of that ?
3)That the line of Mary is no help because Nathan can not produce an heir to the throne ?
Now that as I understand it is your position
That elimates Jesus being a legal heir to the Throne of David..It would make 1)God a liar ..(he lied to David)
2)Make Jesus an illegitmate King
To the others have I mis stated OP's position?
No, I have said nothing of the sort. Matter of fact, find one citation where I say such a thing.
And I have argued that Jesus is the Rightful Heir of ALL of the Solomonic Prophecies. And I have argued that therefore the Jeconiah Curse is true, not a lie, not a Divine case of "just kidding" -- that the everlasting Solomonic Descent may never again establish the Throne of David is a carnal, material kingdom in Old Jerusalem of Judah upon this Earth, exactly as Jeremiah 22:28-30 states.
And I have argued that on this basis, the PreMillenial position is Biblically illegal.
And I have argued that as the Rightful Heir of all of the Prophecies of the Solomonic Descent, Jesus has established the Throne of David in New Jerusalem, forever, never to be removed, for His "KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD".
Meaning that ALL of the Solomonic Prophecies are true. The Descent of Solomon reigns upon the Davidic Throne forever(II Samuel 12:12-17, I Chronicles 17: 11-14, I Chronicles 22:10), and the Descent of Solomon will never again establish the Throne of David is a carnal, material kingdom in Old Jerusalem of Judah upon this Earth (Jeremiah 22:28-30)
2) That Jesus as the adopted son of Joseph remained under the curse and could not inherit the Throne of David because of that?
No, AGAIN I have said nothing of the sort. As the Royal Son of Solomon, Jesus is entitled to the Davidic Throne, for the Davidic Throne is promised as an everlasting inheritance to the Descent of Solomon (II Samuel 12:12-17, I Chronicles 17: 11-14, I Chronicles 22:10). And as the Royal Son of Solomon, Jesus will never again establish the Throne of David is a carnal, material kingdom in Old Jerusalem of Judah upon this Earth (Jeremiah 22:28-30).
Which makes the PreMillenial position Biblically illegal.
3)That the line of Mary is no help because Nathan can not produce an heir to the throne ?
More precisely, I have said that the lineage of Mary does not establish the Kingship Rights of Jesus Christ. And Luke never intended that it should -- because it can't. NONE of the Lesser Houses (including that of Nathan) have ANY right to claim the Davidic Throne, because the Davidic Throne is promised exclusively and unconditionally to the Descent of Solomon forever.
But so what? Jesus does not garner his Kingship Rights from the (non-Royal) Lineage of Mary in the first place. Rather, as the Rightful adoptive Son of Joseph-ben-Jeconiah-ben-Solomon, Jesus is the Rightful Inheritor of ALL of the Solomonic Prophecies.
As the Royal Son of Solomon, Jesus is entitled to the Davidic Throne, for the Davidic Throne is promised as an everlasting inheritance to the Descent of Solomon (II Samuel 12:12-17, I Chronicles 17: 11-14, I Chronicles 22:10). And as the Royal Son of Solomon, Jesus will never again establish the Throne of David is a carnal, material kingdom in Old Jerusalem of Judah upon this Earth (Jeremiah 22:28-30).
Which makes the PreMillenial position Biblically illegal.
Now that as I understand it is your position
Then you have not even been extending me the charity of even paying attention to what I am saying. You have just completely mis-stated my Argument, on several different counts.
That elimates Jesus being a legal heir to the Throne of David..It would make 1)God a liar ..(he lied to David)
No, it does NOT invalidate Jesus as the Rightful Heir to the Solomonic Throne of David. It can't. ONLY a Royal Son of Solomon may ever exercise legitimate Claim to the Throne of David, for the Davidic Throne is promised exclusively and unconditionally to the Descent of Solomon forever.
As the Royal Son of Solomon, Jesus is entitled to the Davidic Throne, for the Davidic Throne is promised as an everlasting inheritance to the Descent of Solomon (II Samuel 12:12-17, I Chronicles 17: 11-14, I Chronicles 22:10). And as the Royal Son of Solomon, Jesus will never again establish the Throne of David is a carnal, material kingdom in Old Jerusalem of Judah upon this Earth (Jeremiah 22:28-30).
Which makes the PreMillenial position Biblically illegal.
2)Make Jesus an illegitmate King
No, Jesus is the Legitimate King, the Rightful Inheritor of ALL of the Solomonic Prophecies.
As the Royal Son of Solomon, Jesus is entitled to the Davidic Throne, for the Davidic Throne is promised as an everlasting inheritance to the Descent of Solomon (II Samuel 12:12-17, I Chronicles 17: 11-14, I Chronicles 22:10). And as the Royal Son of Solomon, Jesus will never again establish the Throne of David is a carnal, material kingdom in Old Jerusalem of Judah upon this Earth (Jeremiah 22:28-30).
Which makes the PreMillenial position Biblically illegal.
And I have argued that Jesus is the Rightful Heir of ALL of the Solomonic Prophecies. And I have argued that therefore the Jeconiah Curse is true, not a lie, not a Divine case of "just kidding" -- that the everlasting Solomonic Descent may never again establish the Throne of David is a carnal, material kingdom in Old Jerusalem of Judah upon this Earth, exactly as Jeremiah 22:28-30 states.
Doubletalk
How did Jesus inherit the right to the throne OP?
How did he inherit this OP? Through Mary or Joseph?
"Double talk"? Try "Double Prophecy". As in, you either believe that both Prophecies are True, or you don't really believe that Bible Prophecy is true at all.
His Kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD.
How did Jesus inherit the right to the throne OP?
Through Joseph-ben-Jeconiah-ben-Solomon, of course.
Meaning that ALL of the Solomonic Prophecies are true. The Descent of Solomon reigns upon the Davidic Throne forever (II Samuel 12:12-17, I Chronicles 17: 11-14, I Chronicles 22:10), and the Descent of Solomon will never again establish the Throne of David as a carnal, material kingdom in Old Jerusalem of Judah upon this Earth (Jeremiah 22:28-30)
Which means that the PreMillenial position is Biblically illegal.
As a legally adopted son?
Of course.
As a Legal and Rightful adoptive Descendant, Jesus rightfully inherits ALL of the Promises made to the Solomonic Descent.
Which means that the PreMillenial position is Biblically illegal.
Now, now -- I'm not even a "shepherd" in the presbyterian sense. Strictly a Lay Apologist, no ordination vows.
Believe what I believe, you teach. Instead of feeding them the true Word, you feed them your Merlot flavored opines.
Let's not be knockin' Merlot, Jesse. Them's fightin' words.
(grin)
best, op
The curse does not apply to him because he is adopted?
Out of curiosity, what exactly made you think I was a Romanist?
Of course Jesus inherits the Jeconiah Prophecy. It applies to ALL of the Descent of Jeconiah (remember, the same Hebrew Word, Zera', descent, establishes the terms of both the Solomonic Prophecy and the Jeconiah Prophecy).
Which means that the PreMillenial position is Biblically illegal.
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