Posted on 08/31/2002 5:03:15 AM PDT by NYer
A WITNESS TO UNBROKEN TRADITION
6. In setting forth its decrees for the revision of the Order of Mass, Vatican Council II directed, among other things, that some rites be restored "to the vigor they had in the tradition of the Fathers";11 this is a quotation from the Apostolic Constitution of 1570, by which St. Pius V promulgated the Tridentine Missal. The fact that the same words are used in reference to both Roman Missals indicates how both of them, although separated by four centuries, embrace one and the same tradition. And when the more profound elements of this tradition are considered, it becomes clear how remarkably and harmoniously this new Roman Missal improves on the older one.
7. The older Missal belongs to the difficult period of attacks against Catholic teaching on the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the ministerial priesthood, and the real and permanent presence of Christ under the eucharistic elements. St. Pius V was therefore especially concerned with preserving the relatively recent developments in the Church's tradition, then unjustly being assailed, and introduced only very slight changes into the sacred rites. In fact, the Roman Missal of 1570 differs very little from the first printed edition of 1474, which in turn faithfully follows the Missal used at the time of Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216). Manuscripts in the Vatican Library provided some verbal emendations, but they seldom allowed research into "ancient and approved authors" to extend beyond the examination of a few liturgical commentaries of the Middle Ages.
8. Today, on the other hand, countless studies of scholars have enriched the "tradition of the Fathers" that the revisers of the Missal under St. Pius V followed. After the Gregorian Sacramentary was first published in 1571, many critical editions of other ancient Roman and Ambrosian sacramentaries appeared. Ancient Spanish and Gallican liturgical books also became available, bringing to light many prayers of profound spirituality that had hitherto been unknown. Traditions dating back to the first centuries before the formation of the Eastern and Western rites are also better known today because so many liturgical documents have been discovered. The continuing progress in patristic studies has also illumined eucharistic theology through the teachings of such illustrious saints of Christian antiquity as Irenaeus, Ambrose, Cyril of Jerusalem, and John Chrysostom.
ADAPTATION TO MODERN CONDITIONS
9. The "tradition of the Fathers" does not require merely the preservation of what our immediate predecessors have passed on to us. There must also be profound study and understanding of the Church's entire past and of all the ways in which its single faith has been expressed in the quite diverse human and social forms prevailing in Semitic, Greek, and Latin cultures. This broader view shows us how the Holy Spirit endows the people of God with a marvelous fidelity in preserving the deposit of faith unchanged, even though prayers and rites differ so greatly.
"'The words of one who no longer loves the Catholic Church, comparing the normative Mass of the Latin Rite to a black Mass.'
"The truth sometimes hurts."
Your words convict you, Bud.
sitetest
It's difficult to believe that you wouldn't realize that comparing the validity of the new Mass to that of a Black Mass is denigrating of the new Mass. To compare the validity of the two is to invite further comparison, and comparison not favorable to the new Mass.
You repeat your ugliness again:
"I said the fact that the Novus Ordo is valid was not saying much. Even the Black Mass is valid."
The message here is:
Just because a Mass is valid doesn't mean it isn't evil. The Novus Ordo is valid and evil. The Black Mass is valid and evil.
And whether you like it or not, you invite further invidious comparisons.
If you realized this, and are now just hiding behind your twisting of your own words (it's kinda funny that after misquoting and mischaracterizing what others have said, you now have trouble understanding the meaning and connotations of your own words), then that's not so good. If you didn't realize this, then that suggests just how far gone you are.
"There are about three of these guys who work in tandem, probably professionals,..."
Hey, thanks for the compliment. But it's undeserved. I assure you, I'm strictly an amateur. ;-)
"...who seek to marginalize traditional Catholics"
Well, if by "traditional Catholics", you mean those who prefer the old Rite, frankly, I encourage anyone who attends an indult Mass to participate and share their riches with us. So long as they can do so without denigrating the normative Mass. There are a number of posters here who assist at the old Rite, and acknowledge that both Rites are not only valid, but fully Catholic, and beneficial to souls.
But if by "traditional Catholics", you mean those who compare the new Mass to a Black Mass, and who denigrate the normative Rite, and who participate in schismatic services from schismatic priests ordained by excommunicated bishops who are no longer in communion with the Bishop of Rome, then yes, I seek to marginalize the arguments of those folks.
sitetest
<>I thought you'd appreciate this warning from the First Ottaviani intervention.
Sitetest is correct. It was a comparison and everyone reading it understood it to be a comparison. You two reveal what is in your hearts when you compare the normative mass to a black mass.
What would be your reaction to this statement; "Ultima and Bud oppose the normative mass just as Hitler opposed the normative mass when he was alive."<>
<>We are both KJPL'ers. We are Catholics who maintain the Bonds of Unity in Worship, Doctrine and Authority. We are easy to tell apart. He is the intelligent, patient one and I am the glib and handsome one. :) We do not always agree - but, I hold out hope for him;).<>
Catholicguy - once again, you know what another poster's intent was and you know what everyone understood it to be. Don't you two have something better to do with your time than to fuel each others egos over the internet?
"...fuel each other's egos..? " LOL. To me it sounds as though our actions are bearing fruit. Sitetest, patent, polycarp et al have routinely and patiently confronted and corrected the many errors, misunderstandings and distortions posted by ultima, hdmz and yourself. I think I sense frustration at having been shown that what you had thought so accurateadmirable and defensible really isn't so.
I know that were I in your mocassins (I almost was at one time) I too would have experienced chagrin at seeing my one "hope" revealed as a dulplicitous enterprise that lies both to the public and its own adherents. For that, you ought to thank us - and will, someday.
<>Well, it is the case the normative Mass, or, if you prefer Pauline Rite, is venerable; i.e. "deserving to be venerated" as the Mass is the action of Jesus offering Himself through the Priesthood He established. If you do not venerate the Mass qua Mass, then you reveal yourself as quite confused.
Many protestants have converted and many have left the Barque of Peter. For every Lefebvre gone, we have a Scott Hahn arrived. It would have been much preferable that Lefebvre had stayed, but, Scott Hahn embraces the Bonds of Unity in Worship, Doctrine and Authority, so, that makes him, on that basis alone, preferable to the one who caused the schism.
Don't forget the words of the First Ottaviani Intervention re schismatics
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