Memorandum on the Immaculate Conception [Newman]

CIN ^ | Cardinal John Henry Newman

[AlguyA]

allend, you've made some valid points. And if I ever get over laughing at the concept of rebutting an intellectual giant like Neuman with a blatherer like Webster maybe I'll join in.

But as I say, for right now I'm too busy laughing at the very thought of it.

[JMJ333]

No argument from me. And I have my theories on the people, but I think Chesterton says it best:

I had no more idea of becoming a Catholic than of becoming a cannibal. I imagined that I was merely pointing out that justice should be done even to cannibals . . . [but] it is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it . . .

[MarMema]

Thus, sincerely speaking, I really do not see what the difficulty is, and should like it set down distinctly in words.

And therein lies the problem with the westernization of Christianity.

[JMJ333]

The New Testament consists of teaching tools (the gospels), a history (The Acts of the Apostles), letters of correction and instruction (such as Paul's Epistles), and what some consider a symbolic condemnation of the Roman Emperor Nero (Revelation). It was assembled to serve a church that was already functioning and growing. The original gospel tradition was oral. There is evidence that the Apostles and ealry Christian doctors promulgated doctrine before the bible was compiled. In short, the Bible wasn't meant to be a teaching manual the way catechisms are, so your complaint isn't justifyable.

So back to post 18. What are your refutations in regard to Newman's assertions?

[EODGUY]

Excellent post. Articulate and easy to understand, at least for those who care to read the document and respond to it sincerely.

BTTT

[JMJ333]

Thanks. And bttt back to you. =)

[MarMema]

I think all this doctrine infighting is the sickness of religion. I think God is more interested in your love for others than in your beliefs about this or that doctrine. I think when we get to the day of judgement, what we will have to answer for are the times we visited the poor and those in prison, not specifically what we believed about the doctrine of the Theotokos.

I think you should be striving with all of your might to be in communion with God instead of trying to explain God. I think words are inadequate and useless when it comes to the greatest mystery ever.

And I think the Reformation did irreparable damage to the church of Christ.

[Salvation]

bookmarking to read tomorrow.

[Catholicguy]

I think all this doctrine infighting is the sickness of religion

You come here and initiate the doctrinal fight from the Orthodox perspective and then complain about infighting?

How about responding to JMJ's question? You inserted yourself into the situation, do you not think you have a burden to respond?

[JMJ333]

In other words, you don't have an argument against the article. I am guessing from your responses that you won't read it. I will end with this quote from Newman in the article:

I say it distinctly--there may be many excuses at the last day, good and bad, for not being Catholics; one I cannot conceive: "O Lord, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was so derogatory to Thy Grace, so inconsistent with Thy Passion, so at variance with Thy word in Genesis and the Apocalypse, so unlike the teaching of Thy first Saints and Martyrs, as to give me a right to reject it at all risks, and Thy Church for teaching it. It is a doctrine as to which my private judgment is fully justified in opposing the Church's judgment. And this is my plea for living and dying a Protestant". [just subtitute the word orthodox for protestant--it will still apply]

[MarMema]

I read the article and I do have an argument against it. It is an unnecessary attempt to explain something that is unexplainable.

[JMJ333]

Okay! Well, this is a debate forum, and when you come on a thread you should expect it. I'm off to work. Have a good day.

[Pyro7480]

Bump for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, 8 December 2004.

[Salvation]

The Immaculate Conception of Our Lady December 8

Mary's Immaculate Conception: A Memorable Anniversary

Ineffabilis Deus: 8 December 1854 (Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)

Why do we believe in the Immaculate Conception?

John Paul II goes to Lourdes; reflections on the Immaculate Conception

Your Praises We Sing--on the Dogma of the Proclamation of the Immaculate Conception, Dec. 8th

Eastern Christianity and the Immaculate Conception (Q&A From EWTN)

Memorandum on the Immaculate Conception [Newman]

On The Feast of The Immaculate Conception, The Patroness of the US, We Must Pray For Our Country[Read only]

[Lilllabettt]

Ephraim the Syrian

"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).

The First, Second, and Third Ecumenical Councils were Nicea, Constantinople, and Epheseus, right? 325, 381, and 431 A.D., right? So is Ephraim early enough for you? Or is St. Ambrose just making this stuff up?