Posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:40 AM PDT by xzins
THE WRONG TEACHINGS OF MAN
According to the Canons of Dordt (Third & Fourth Heads of Doctrine -- Article 11), "But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions."
Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."
Article 22 of The Belgic Confession states: "We believe that, to attain a true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him."
John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, writes that God "has given the true knowledge of Himself in an internal manner, by the illumination of His Spirit, without the intervention of any preaching."
Calvinism teaches that those who are not of the elect "cannot believe, even though he hears the external preaching of the Word and perhaps reads it for himself many times!" In the elect, however, "the Holy Spirit works IRRESISTIBLY, regenerating him so that he understands fully that he is a sinner and needs God, and, therefore, wants to be saved and to believe" (Dr. Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 48).
"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only! The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit's call and of God's grace in saving sinners as being 'efficacious,' 'invincible,' or 'irresistible.' For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ!" (Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 49).
VERSUS THE HOLY TEACHINGS OF GOD
Is Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace a valid teaching in light of God's Word? Let us again ask some important questions and seek their answer from the inspired Scriptures.
QUESTION
This doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit gives faith to the elect even before they have heard the gospel. Indeed, it maintains one cannot either understand or accept the gospel unless he has first been given faith to do so. Is faith something imposed irresistibly upon the elect, or does it come from hearing and accepting the Word of God?
Romans 10:17 ..... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." "But many of those who had heard the word believed" (Acts 4:4).
John 20:30-31 ..... "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
John 17:20 ..... "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word." "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household" (Acts 11:13-14).
Acts 18:4, 8 ..... "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. And Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized."
James 1:18, 21 ..... "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth .... Therefore, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (I Corinthians 15:1-2).
Romans 1:16 ..... "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
Luke 8:11, 15 ..... (The Parable of the Sower) --- "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."
I Corinthians 1:21 ..... "God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
QUESTION
Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that you cannot resist the grace of God, nor can you resist His Spirit. What does the Bible say? (Can you resist the grace of God and can you resist the Holy Spirit?)
Revelation 3:20 ..... "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." The Holy Spirit is a gentleman! He knocks at the door of your heart, he doesn't kick it down! Man has the choice to hear and open, or to refuse Him entrance.
Matthew 23:37 ..... "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth." "Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30). "The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).
Acts 7:51 ..... "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30). "Do not quench the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19).
QUESTION
Does God give His Holy Spirit to the elect before they have heard, believed and accepted the gospel (as Calvinism teaches), or does He bestow His Spirit only upon those who have accepted Christ?
John 14:17 ..... Jesus promises to send to His disciples "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him."
John 7:38-39 ..... "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' This He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive."
Acts 2:38 ..... "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). Peter says that the Gentiles received the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as the Jews did, "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:17).
Galatians 4:6 ..... "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"
Ephesians 1:13-14 ..... "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance."
Galatians 3:2 ..... "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"
Galatians 3:13-14 ..... "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Calvinists would say that we receive faith through the Spirit; God's Word says we receive the Spirit through faith! Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that the Holy Spirit directly, miraculously, and irresistibly opens and enters the hearts of unbelieving and unrepentant sinners and regenerates them against their will.
"The doctrine of the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of man, sometimes referred to as 'special' or 'saving' or 'irresistible' grace; teaching that man is inherently depraved and cannot respond to the gospel without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit; is man's doctrine, not Bible doctrine. If the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit is true, then the logical implication is that the Word of God is insufficient in the conversion of the sinner. If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is true, then it places the responsibility of salvation entirely upon God and destroys the responsibility of man to act. If Irresistible Grace is truly 'irresistible,' it destroys the 'free moral agency' of man" (David Gibson, Calvin's TULIP Theology).
I have taken my share of abuse ..but as you have shown you have a limited ability to see what you do not want to see.
You wanted to be part of the "gang" how better to do it than jump on me right? So jesse decide to join in the bash
"Oh she probably told me to repent because I talked to xzins..
That was an out and out lie. That thread had nothing to do with xzins even IF I had told you to repent..but again in your loving Christian way you too had some sport mocking others. but then thay does not count in your economy only what the other side says "counts" The funny thing about your comment is xzins and I talk all the time..we make each other nuts on doctrine but I would fly to his home if he needed some help. I happen to like him. And he likes me We simply go at each other on the forums..(did you see what he said to me yesterday?..or again does that not "count" ) We ended the night with no doctrinal agreement but we did have peace.... .
So your little "joke" at my expense just showed your ignorance of the relationships here..yea I even like rev..and we make each other nuts..but if rev needed me in Rochester I would drive there..He is welcome in my home anytime.
Unlike you I make no claims at sainthood. This is a hard hitting forum ..I will get as good as I give. I will pull apart words and question the doctrine of others..I make no apology for that
The funny thing is in your desire to be accepted as one of the boys and help defend the error of Wesley you did not know any of that .
BTW I accept your observation that I am "worse that you" i am a filty rotten sinner and that is the truth
Very astute observation grasshopper. However you must remember that the Cactus that denies that he is a rose deceives no one.
As I have said (numerous times over the years) Arminianism is just as wrong as Calvinism and Arminianism is just as correct as Calvinism. Just as Calvinists have an overemphasis on the Soverignty of God to the point that (IMHO) they must twist scriptures to prove their point, so the Arminians have an overemphasis on the Soverignty of Man to the point that they must (IMHO) also twist the scriptures to prove their point.
It is within the harmonization of the two positions that I believe that the truth resides. It is not "moral relativism" to seek a balance in what may appear to be contradictory scriptures, it is faith that the scriptures are not contradictory and a hope that the truth will become clear "when that which is perfect is come." There is no "morality" involved in taking one position over the other or in taking no position at all.
IMHO God is as sovereign as God wants to be and Man is as sovereign as God wants him to be. Would you not agree?
Fighters are supposed to go to their corners for a spell.
Rules:
1. No hitting below the belt
2. No thumb spiking the eye
3. No biting (The Mike Tyson rule)
4. No dozens (The Evander Holyfield rule)
5. NO anvils in glove
Laaaaaaa .....dieeeeeees AND gennnnnnn.....tlllll.....men!
Very astute observation grasshopper. However you must remember that the Cactus that denies that he is a rose deceives no one.
Except, "pookie", you forget that the cactus that denies that he is a cactus deceives only himself. The cactus also tends to get upset when every passerby looks at him and calls him a cactus. He is even know to call others a liar for noting that he is a cactus.
As I have said (numerous times over the years) Arminianism is just as wrong as Calvinism and Arminianism is just as correct as Calvinism. Just as Calvinists have an overemphasis on the Soverignty of God to the point that (IMHO) they must twist scriptures to prove their point, so the Arminians have an overemphasis on the Soverignty of Man to the point that they must (IMHO) also twist the scriptures to prove their point.
Either the scriptures do teach that God elects a man to salvation (Calvinism) or the scriptures do teach that man elects a man to salvation (Arminianism). There is no "harmonization of the two positions"; they are diametrically opposed.
Either the scriptures do teach that man is dead in sins and totally helpless until God makes him alive (Calvinism) or the scriptures do teach that man is just spiritually sick and not totally helpless (Arminianism). There is no "harmonization of the two positions"; they are diametrically opposed.
Either the scriptures do teach that the grace of God which brings Salvation is irresistable (Calvinism) or the scriptures do teach that the grace of God which possibly brings Salvation is resistable (Arminianism). There is no "harmonization of the two positions"; they are diametrically opposed.
Either the scriptures do teach that those who have Salvation will perservere until the end (Calvinism) or the scriptures do teach that those who have Salvation might not perservere until the end (Arminianism). There is no "harmonization of the two positions"; they are diametrically opposed.
To claim that among 2 diametrically opposed theologies of scripture there is a "harmonization" is like saying that Mozart will harmonize with Ozzy. To claim that there is a "harmonization" of diametrically opposed theologies is the very essence of "moral relativism". They are not equally right and equally wrong. That only happens in a court. Turn off your inner lawyer and figure out which is which.
Since you claim that Calvinism twists scriptures, you wouldn't mind showing us a few examples, would you?
IMHO God is as sovereign as God wants to be and Man is as sovereign as God wants him to be. Would you not agree?
I think you need to get off of the fence; the pickets are bound to gore you eventually. Either God is Sovereign or man is Sovereign. There is no such thing as "Sovereign relativism"!
Sorry if I accused you unfairly Dr.E thought you had tipped your hand and do did I
Not a lie..just a **Mistake** (You are still a Wesleyan and should appreciate that) I trust the hatred in your post was just a mistake too
You may go back to your hole now..:>) Sorry
ya just one of the boys:>)
There is a moment when one must get off the fence
My unsaved dad had a much clearer way of speaking
Eithor S *** or get off the pot
In the case of this bit of denial I would say
If it Walks like a 
and it talks like a 
It is usually a
Come on Marlow you believe in "Free grace" You are an Arminian
Would you post your churches faith statement?
I would suggest if this is that meaningless you go find some monkeys to hang around with.
Ps xzins I am glad you finally admitted you are a monkey ( I noted your welcome to the family post)
Calvinist believe we are Gods children ( Boy are you desprete:>)
Our sages say that the mark of a true prophet is the ability to hold two conflicting viewpoints in his mind at the same time. You may both move up to true prophethood.
I have no wish to malign or argue with Rn. I came to discuss theology and to avoid the infighting that she apparently likes to provoke. I have a professor friend at Hebrew University so I am going to go watch the news. Thanks for the posts. later
Its so nice to see that you know everything Mom. Its so nice to know that you can read my mind.
Tell me what "Free Grace" is and I will tell you if I believe in it. It clearly depends on how you define the term. In reviewing most of these posts over the years it is clear to me that "Arminians" (meaning everyone who isn't a Calvinist) and Calvinists have different definitions for the terms they use and they constantly talk over each other never seeing eye to eye.
So why don't you define "Free Grace" in terms even a Child like me can understand and then I will tell you if I believe in it. Can you do that?
How peculiar.
I do not believe for a minute that any of the Calvinist or Arminian posters to these threads was the chicken. IMO, he was a far too foul fowl for any of the regulars here.
So someone tell Corin to knock off the slander...or we'll think it was the Little Mermaid's uncle.
You deny being an Arminian.,.but that is the side of the doctrinal coin you seem to fall on in your posts
Here is Wesley on free Grace
read it an let us know if he reflects your position
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooo you did not say that LOL
Ditto..PLEASE do not egg him on
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