[RnMomof7]

Actually, I asked Woody to pray over the scriptures (over the bible) in question. And, yes, he did mock that.

There is a logical argument that can be made that calvinists do not think prayer can effectively change anything

Why do you say that when you know it is not true?

It is actually Arminians that SHOULD NOT pray IF they are to be faithful to THEIR doctrine..

If you pray and God changed the person then YOU have interfered with that persons free will

So thus your prayer for a sinner in need of salvation would go like this

Heavenly Father I ask you to STAY AWAY " do not touch or move anything. Allow my loved one to use their free will without you interfering.

An Arminian can never pray for God to intervene in any situation because it is an afront to mans free will.

On the other hand Calvinists have NO PROBLEM asking God to act sovereignly and impact the will of man....We pray for that impact..WE want God to act..

And we know that God knowing all things in advance KNEW we were going to pray..Our prayer is a PART of His will and Plan..

So xzins..How is it you tell woody to "pray "over his bible ..but you do not pray to have God open your eyes to the truth of your conversion?

BTW Hope an intersting historical sidelight..Joseph Smith was a Methodist like xzins..the Methodists teach the "strangly warmed heart'.......I suspect that is where Joseph got his "burning breast " belief from.

[xzins]

You are partially correct, partially incorrect on both counts, Rn.

1. Appropriately, a wesley-arminian would pray that the Holy Spirit continue his convicting work with any sinner. In that sense we would pray for the Lord's salvation work on the indivdual. You are correct that we believe it is God's will that everyone have free choice and that God would not override His own will. But we firmly believe God works with folks to lovingly, unceasingly urge and convict them in the right direction.

2. It is true that calvinists pray for different folks to be saved. You are correct there. But I was also correct. The Westminster Confession, one of the bibles of calvinism, very clearly states that everyone who would ever exist had his fate completely and unalterably determined before the world was created. While a calvinist might pray for someone to be saved, it won't change a single thing since all things were predetermined. If that person was preselected to go to hell, that prayer won't matter a hill of beans with God.

[ponyespresso]

BTW Hope an intersting historical sidelight..Joseph Smith was a Methodist like xzins..the Methodists teach the "strangly warmed heart'.......I suspect that is where Joseph got his "burning breast " belief from.

Joseph Smith was a Methodist in the same way the kid working a concession counter in a cinema is a movie star.