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To: RnMomof7; Some hope remaining.; Wrigley; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; ...
You are partially correct, partially incorrect on both counts, Rn.

1. Appropriately, a wesley-arminian would pray that the Holy Spirit continue his convicting work with any sinner. In that sense we would pray for the Lord's salvation work on the indivdual. You are correct that we believe it is God's will that everyone have free choice and that God would not override His own will. But we firmly believe God works with folks to lovingly, unceasingly urge and convict them in the right direction.

2. It is true that calvinists pray for different folks to be saved. You are correct there. But I was also correct. The Westminster Confession, one of the bibles of calvinism, very clearly states that everyone who would ever exist had his fate completely and unalterably determined before the world was created. While a calvinist might pray for someone to be saved, it won't change a single thing since all things were predetermined. If that person was preselected to go to hell, that prayer won't matter a hill of beans with God.

48 posted on 07/24/2002 9:55:36 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; RnMomof7
You are partially correct, partially incorrect on both counts, Rn. 1. Appropriately, a wesley-arminian would pray that the Holy Spirit continue his convicting work with any sinner. In that sense we would pray for the Lord's salvation work on the indivdual. You are correct that we believe it is God's will that everyone have free choice and that God would not override His own will. But we firmly believe God works with folks to lovingly, unceasingly urge and convict them in the right direction.

Only in a system where our will is considered by God can prayer be an issue.

God wants us to come to Him as His children and ask Him for our desires. As long as those desires do not contradict God's own, He will answer those prayers.

Ye as and receive not because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts (Ja.4:3)
The fact is that God is moved by our prayers, which is an awesome thought.

The best works on prayer if you haven't already read them, is the life of George Mueller, and E.M.Bounds.

2. It is true that calvinists pray for different folks to be saved. You are correct there. But I was also correct. The Westminster Confession, one of the bibles of calvinism, very clearly states that everyone who would ever exist had his fate completely and unalterably determined before the world was created. While a calvinist might pray for someone to be saved, it won't change a single thing since all things were predetermined. If that person was preselected to go to hell, that prayer won't matter a hill of beans with God.

Since according to Calvinism our own will is never considered, since everything is Decreed according to God's own Will, prayer is but a meaningless ritual.

53 posted on 07/24/2002 11:22:23 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: xzins
Appropriately, a wesley-arminian would pray that the Holy Spirit continue his convicting work with any sinner. In that sense we would pray for the Lord's salvation work on the indivdual.

I guess you haven't been over here to see how Piper shreds your "Prevenient Grace" nonsense!
55 posted on 07/24/2002 11:34:39 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: xzins
1. Appropriately, a wesley-arminian would pray that the Holy Spirit continue his convicting work with any sinner. In that sense we would pray for the Lord's salvation work on the indivdual. You are correct that we believe it is God's will that everyone have free choice and that God would not override His own will. But we firmly believe God works with folks to lovingly, unceasingly urge and convict them in the right direction.

That would interfere with the FREE WIILL of man......how can you violate YOUR doctrine like that ? If you really believed what you preach you would not ask God to barge in on anothers free will.

IF God does that it is NOT a full free will choice..

You talk in circles..

God changes

God does not choose to control event

Salvation that is caused by any other means but Mans Free Will is forced on him..he is a puppet

So you have no business praying for God to override mans free will or to intervene in circumstances in a way that would influence them

You worship at the altar of mans will...bend you knee to baal and leave the God of creation to his nap..

56 posted on 07/24/2002 11:51:12 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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